How to Build Relationships With Podcast Sponsors, With Billy Thorpe

Podcast sponsorships. When I say that, what is the first thing you think of? For most podcasters, it's either money or numbers. You think of ad rates, CPM and CPA and all kinds of industry jargon like that. And this episode of Grow the Show is about sponsorships, yes. But if you want to learn about the money, the numbers and how to build a larger monetization strategy, I suggest you first check out our episodes with Gary Aunt and Dave Jackson. Those are linked in the show notes. And that's because even though it's about sponsorships, this episode isn't really about money, at least not directly. It's about relationships. Because here's the thing, when it comes to podcasting and sponsorships, the money comes second. The people and the relationships come first. Because if you build amazing relationships with people in your industry and your niche, the actual human beings who work for the brands that you want to sponsor you, then right off the bat, you're going to be in the position to succeed and to actually make money from your podcast. But again, the money comes after the relationships. So today, that's what we're going to talk about, how to build relationships with potential podcast sponsors. And to help us learn how to do this, we've brought in a sponsorship expert. His name is Billy Thorpe. Billy is a successful podcaster entrepreneur and an online creator who teaches other creators how to monetize their work. And today, he's going to teach us about one of the most underrated yet important pieces of monetizing your podcast, which is how to build relationships. By the end of this episode, you're going to know how to find sponsors that are the best fit for you and your show. And you're going to learn a way to pitch yourself to them that virtually guarantees a higher chance of success. Because the secret to making sponsorship money soon is building relationships now. This is Grow the Show, the podcast to help you grow your podcast. My name is Kevin Schmittland and my mission is to help you the independent podcaster to get more listeners and monetize now so you can have a profitable business. Today on the show, you're going to learn that it is never too early to start getting podcast sponsorships because it's never too early to start building relationships. How to build relationships with potential podcast sponsors with Billy Thorpe is now on Grow the Show. My name is Billy Thorpe. I'm the host of Creating for Money and I Help podcasters. Make money with their podcasters sponsorship bills. Billy's first podcast was actually a really successful show that he had with a friend. It was all about saltwater fishing. I worked at a fishing newspaper in 2018 and I like fell in love with the community. I wasn't really a good saltwater angler or fisherman but I love the community. I love the tournaments, the camaraderie. And I thought what they were doing was really cool. And I kept telling the owner like, man, you gotta go digital. We gotta do something digital. And he never would. And so that relationship came to an end and then I had this idea to do this live stream show. And that's kind of kind of a little mix. I was messing with live stream and then started learning about podcasting. Got a co-host, a friend of mine who was a fishing guide, started the show. It blows up. We had no idea what we were doing. We didn't have any agreements in place. People were wanting to throw money at us and sponsorship deals and grills and we're like, yeah, this is awesome. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it. Let's cash checks. And my buddy's like, no, no, I have a business. I don't want another one. But he was a fishing guide. So it was like with this fishing show and he's like booking trips. He was having fun. And I'm like, man, I can't work and produce stuff for free. Like I need to make money. And so even though his fishing podcast was getting incredibly lucrative sponsorship opportunities, Billy's co-host had no interest in monetizing the show because even when sponsors are coming to you, it's still a lot of work to actually close deals and keep those sponsors happy. Billy's partner didn't want to take that on in addition to his other business. But Billy wasn't interested in doing the show just for fun. So he decided to leave. And he did this because he actually had other business interests that required his time and energy as well. He had a t-shirt printing business and another podcast. I was doing another little business podcast just as a networking tool to get me more networked in my community. And so I was talking about entrepreneurship and small business. And I was learning about community and people and doing business like through my t-shirt business. But 2020 came March 2020 t-shirt business goes away $20,000 canceled orders in one day. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do. This was scary and many of us were in the same position back in 2020. But Billy didn't fully recognize that with the success of his fishing show, he had kind of cracked the code on something that other people hadn't figured out, which is how to build a thriving online community via a show. He finally started to notice this when he started having the same conversation over and over again. I was taking phone call to phone call of entrepreneurs and every phone calls like, dude, I see you doing live stuff because I was just going live for fun on YouTube or Facebook or whatever. And then I, can you help us? Can you help us? Those other entrepreneurs had seen Billy's success in using podcasts as a tool to promote his business so they wanted to get in on the game. That's when Billy realized he might be onto something. Since then, he's helped tons of online creators monetize what they make through his company, which is now called creating daily. And this is actually how I originally came across Billy. He was in a clubhouse room back in the spring of 2021 when clubhouse had its big moment. That room was about podcast monetization. And it's attendees asked tons of questions about sponsorships. And I gotta be honest, with each response Billy gave, I was blown away. I was like, who is this guy? He really knew what he was talking about. And he understood the key skill that's required to land lucrative, fruitful sponsorships. You see, it's not necessarily about how to price your sponsorship. It's not how to craft the perfect pitch email. And it's not even about how to write and perform great host red ads. The key is how to build relationships with potential sponsors. And that's what Billy's going to teach us how to do today. And the first step to that to building relationships with potential sponsors actually happens before you even interact with them. It happens within you. So if you're not showing up like a business, you're not going to get paid like a business. So that's my always my first thing is like, if you're showing up like a hobby, you're a hobby, if you're going to, if you want to get a check, you got to show up like a business. And a lot of broadcasters, that's the first thing they need to do is really evaluate, is their podcast worthy of a sponsor? Anybody can sit behind a microphone and tell their story. And I love that, by the way, like I love shows that are like, just, hey, we're going to banter, we're going to do whatever. But most of the people who are saying, hey, I need to get paid for this, are people who aren't treating it like a business. It's a hobby. And so I think that's my first thing is, you know, organize like a business, show up like a business, create content like a business, have a system like a business. I mean, we've put out, we've actually recorded over a hundred, hundred, three hundred, four episodes. But that's what we do. We batch record, we make sure we got all the stuff done. We're not missing episodes, you know, and in part of that is the motivation of sponsorship deals or whatever. But that's just how we operate. We operate like a business. And so that's kind of the first thing is like, you know, get organized that way. A helpful tool to get and stay organized is the media kit. A media kit is sort of like a cheat sheet about you, your podcast, your company, and what it is you're offering. It has basic info, stats and images. And this isn't big news. You probably already know what a media kit is. And a lot of podcasters know that you need this. But there is a hidden pitfall that most beginners do get trapped in hours has kind of evolved a little bit from the time we started. So it used to be just like four pages, super simple. But it was really complex. It was super simple looking, but it was really complicated. We had different frequencies. It was like four, six, eight, 10, 12, 16, 24, 32 shows or what? I mean, it got complicated, man. It was complicated. And then it had like five different packages or whatever. So this year we backed up and said, okay, we're going to treat every sponsor like a platinum sponsor because we don't have that many spots. So it's not that we can, you know, really fulfill stuff. So now we offer very similar packages, three, six, 12 months. And we just basically add a little perk or two to the six month and a little perk or two to the 12 month. And then it has, you know, episode rates per episode or what not. And then we kind of put ball together where it's really simple like, oh, this is what it costs cool. We're in or we're out. And that part of it comes after the call. So I'll do a call. I'll talk about it. I'll talk about stuff in the media kit. I'll even talk about pricing if they ask or whatever. I'm not doing a Zoom call. I'm not doing a pitch presentation. And I'm one of those guys where I just kind of say, hey, here it is. Here's a price. Take it or leave it. You're not going to hurt my feelings because I know it's just business. If it makes sense for you, you'll do it. If it doesn't make sense for you, I'm going to move on to somebody else. Actually, who's your biggest competitor? Because I'm going to call them now. That's a great little. Oh, that might make a little bit more sense after you say that. I mean, yeah, right. Like, oh, wait a second. And so then I'll say, you know, after the call, if they're like, yeah, send us more information, that is the more information. So media kit does a couple of things for us. One, it keeps me super organized and consistent. I'm not, I'm not going, oh, yeah. So what, oh, you know, let me think about pricing and get back to you. I'd say, hey, it's an immediate kit. It's cut and dry. And even if we grow over a amount of time and maybe the prices should go up, I'll update it. You know, we'll go three months and we'll look at it's a living breathing document. Numbers change, reach changes, followings, you know, all this stuff that that matters to people changes, testimonies come in better testimonies respond, you know, all this stuff is like a revolving door and it's always changing. And so I think it's important to to create that document and keep up with it. It's homework. If you're interested in seeing what Billy's media kit looks like, the link to that is in the show notes. All right. So now you're set and you feel prepared to take on sponsors. How do you go about actually getting one? Well, there's actually two ways that podcasts get sponsorship. The first is that the sponsor actually reaches out to you. Those are called inbound sponsorships. These can be rare, especially if you're just starting out, but it does happen and it might have already happened to you. Here's what Billy and his team do if someone reaches out to them and wants to be a sponsor. When I qualify my podcast and make sure I feel confident that whatever package deal, whatever I do with this company, I can deliver on it. And I do this for a couple of reasons. One, you know, for the small creator, like myself, who has a small audience, it's really important that we get it right because I want the next guy who starts a fishing podcast who approaches the same sponsor that I'm working with that they just go, yeah, we want to do that. Cool. Because I made such a good first impression and I kind of paved this way of relationship for the next guy. The next thing is I want to make sure that their brand is qualified for my podcast. I want to make sure that we serve the same community. I want to see what their pain points are. And I'm really passionate about helping business owners. Now, being a business owner and helping business owners, maybe that's like, you know, maybe it's a step different than most podcasters. But I want to have that conversation and really say, you know, okay, what are your struggles? So yeah, man, did they start the same community? You know, what are their pain points? Are they willing to share it? And then, is it a good company? Like, I'm looking at their Google reviews. If I'm going to tell you, my friend, my listener, to go do business and give your money to these people, I want to make sure that I can rip you off. While having sponsors pitch themselves to you is awesome. You really can't build a business around that because, well, it just doesn't make sense to build a business that waits for customers to reach out to you. And so if sponsorship is going to be a key piece of your podcast monetization strategy, you're going to have to learn how to reach out to potential sponsors yourself. And that is called outbound sponsorship. Here's how to make those happen. First of all, everybody should know this is a sales gig. Like, if you're trying to get money, it's a sales gig. And so what I do is I get categories of different products or services that cater to my industry. So for phishing, you know, apparel's big, boats are big, the, you know, campers, coolers, phishing tackle, and you can kind of nits down into those things. But I'll get four to five categories. And then I will get four to five brands within that category that I'm already familiar with if at all possible. You know, for me, it was like a couple of boat dealers that I was going to call on. It was a cooler couple cooler companies, a couple tackle shops, you know, and I would get four or five of these brands I can reach out to. So by the time you do this, you got this prospecting list of 16 to 25 brands. Okay. So if step one is to create categories of different kinds of sponsors that you think would fit well with your show, then step two is to come up with brands that fit those categories. Step three is where we get into the juicy stuff, building connections with those brands. And again, remember brands are not people. The people who work for those brands are people. So once you have your list of brands, you have to go through each one and ask yourself this question. Who do I know that works there? Who do I know who used to work there? If we're talking sales stock, like warm leads, cold leads, and all that kind of stuff, I teach my students this too. Like if you're in an industry like I'm in the phishing space, more than likely, you know, and you can throw a rocket five people five feet away that you know, they're in that same industry or a hope or you need to network a little better or whatever. But I'm not going to go call somebody, you know, I'm never spoken with and try to get their attention when I can call a friend and say, hey, man, we're starting this podcast. I want to meet with you. And so I do that. So I make a list of people of categories. And then I, you know, I make a list of brands within that category. And then I make a list of people that I know that are in those industries. And then I'm going to reach out to them first, just to see if they have any connections. Because it's a lot easier for me to say, hey, so Kevin from Grow the Shows, you know, told me to give you a call that you would be a really good fit for sponsorship for my podcast. That's way easier than saying, hey, I got a podcast, you know, you want to sponsor, you know, or whatever. I found you on the internet, you know, like, you don't know me, but you give me money. Yeah, right. But if they go, oh, Kevin, oh, yeah, I know Kevin. Yeah, cool. I'll least listen to what you have to say. So yeah, it's just trying to like position yourself to be familiar with people and who's in their circle because they'll trust you more. Same with me. And that's what we do with sponsorships. It's like, you're paying a premium because people trust what I'm going to say. Yeah, it's all a trust game. And that's also why, you know, a lot of pod casters initial reflexes to reach out to the cast for mattresses and and the square spaces who they hear on other podcasts. And I think that's a good instinct because yes, that company is sold on podcast advertisement, but they're not sold on you. So it sounds like what you're recommending is to do the opposite, get people who are already sold on you via a direct connection or, you know, a second degree and sell them on podcast advertisement. Is that right? Yeah. So here's what happens. And I hear this a lot. I'm like, why don't you reach out to Casper mattress over reaching out to, you know, like what like the shoe company, you talk about shoe, you have shoe podcasts, you should reach out to your local shoe guy. And they're like, well, Casper already advertised on podcasts. I'm like, well, yeah, and just because people sleep in a bed, doesn't mean everyone's shopping for a bed. So the more you line up that those two niches of sponsor and brand of your podcast and your niche of your podcasts, the more likely that relationship is going to last for a really long time. And sometimes it's not as obvious as you think, because I have a fishing podcast and guess what? I don't have. I don't have a tackle company that sponsors my show. I can't figure it out. I'm like, yeah, why not? Like, I have a giant audio. I mean, not a giant audience, but we have a decent sized audience every month. And I'm like, can we please, you know, somebody please love us and put your lures on our show, please. I think you'll probably get one sometime soon. I make that joke every week, but it is thinking outside the box, too. It's not always the obvious. Like, we had a sponsor came on that does trailer hitches. So, you know, what a fisherman need. They need trailer hitches for their trucks, for their campers, all that kind of stuff. And then sometimes, you know, we have sponsors reach out to us or potential sponsors. So we had a landscaping company. And it didn't really make sense at first. I'm like, this isn't a good, it's a landscaping business. It doesn't make sense. And the guy was like, man, I reach out to you because one, I love your show. I listen to all time. We're outdoors people. And we get to work early. We get home early and we get on the boat. And we want to hire people that want to do the same thing. So, we want to run a spot on your show to recruit outdoors men, outdoors women that want to get up, go to work early, get off work early, and be on the boat, and whatever. And so once we kind of dialed into that messaging, I'm like, cool. It makes sense, you know, that's incredible. That's totally outside of the box. You would never, like, that can only come from actually interacting with people within the niche, right? You're never going to sit down and make a list and come up with something like that. And it really comes to like putting a call to action as well and letting people know they can't sponsor. And so we've got two sponsors that way. We do have a little call to action. It's really simple. Just a little mention like, oh, here's our sponsors, you know, blah, blah, blah. We have a little sponsor segment. And then hey, if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, reach out to me and I give my email and tell them where they can find it and all that kind of stuff. This is all great if you're someone who has a lot of connections like Billy. But what if you don't? What if you're just starting out in this area, in this industry? Billy's going to lay out exactly what to do after the break. All right. So before the break, we talked about how to come up with potential sponsors and how to use your industry connections as a tool to reach out to them. But what if you're just starting out or you don't have tons of contacts in your niche or your industry? Well, if your network is smaller and you can't come up with anyone to introduce you to your first few potential sponsors, you're going to have to introduce yourself. Sometimes I'll just call call and say, Hey, you know, who's the best person for marketing or whatever? And so then that's my next step. I have this list of businesses. I call my wish list. And I hope something comes to this. And then I'll reach out to them. Now, once again, I'm a phone guy. I'm not going to send a random email in my industry. I'm pretty familiar with it. So I get that people aren't very techy. They're not going to respond to emails very well. And you know, these guys are running around doing fishing stuff or whatever. So I'll call them. I'll check in on the phone as a podcaster. And I think for a lot of podcasters, we use our voice all the time. That's our gift. So why am I going to try to craft an email now? Maybe you're a great writer and you can craft an email and get your point across. But I know like if I can get this person on the phone and we can build that relationship, then if it's a good fit, we're both going to know it. All right. So now you're ready. You're ready to pitch yourself to a sponsor. You pick up the phone, you dial the number and someone from the company answers. Now what? I'm going to figure out as much information that I can. Who makes the advertising decisions? What's their fund number? What's their email if I can get it? And then also I'm building a relationship with what I call the gatekeeper. So I want to know, you know, Susie, because I'm going to call her again. I'm going to talk to her. So if you're if you're jerk to Susie, call one. Guess what? You're never talking to who you want to. All right. But if you make sure you know their name, write it down. That way you can use it as a reference source later. So that's kind of what I'm doing as well. So I'm getting all this discovery information. If I can get contact information, if not, what's the best time to call them? You know, what days are they in? What days do they work? Now in a perfect world, that person who picks up the phone is going to tell you that you sound like a great fit. And they'll begin working with you right away. Where can I send the check? The reality is, however, that you're probably not going to get a very direct answer in your first conversation. And the key to continuing the relationship and landing the sponsor eventually is patient and polite persistence. We brought on Academy sports last year to do some stuff and we brought them on again this year. And how I got that relationship was I walked into an Academy sports, talked to the manager said, Hey, do you handle the advertising marketing for this area? No, that's so and so. And the other office call so and so, Hey, do you handle it? No, that's so and so. And I just kept going up the ladder. And now I have a great relationship with the whole, you know, regional person that handles the whole East Coast. And so, you know, but it's work. It took me multiple phone calls, follow ups, all that kind of stuff. So I'll have those. I'll have the prospects. And then I have like, you know, my outreach list, like, okay, I called them. I reached out. What happened? And in Trello, I'm just taking notes. So I'll remember. So my future self will remember the conversation. The reasons why, you know, what objections am I getting? Objections are basically reasons why a potential customer or in this case, a potential sponsor might say no. And another word that I like to use for objections is excuses. Once you start doing this for a while, you notice that people tend to bring up the same excuses over and over again for why they shouldn't do something. Now, I'm not saying that you should ever, ever pressure somebody into doing something that they don't want to do or that isn't in their best interests. But most times, people are making excuses not to do something that they actually really want to do, that they can totally afford to do. And that is definitely in their best interests. And when those excuses or objections start to come up over and over again, you start to get good at handling them, which basically means pointing out why those excuses don't really make sense. For example, a common objection that we get from people who want to join the Grow the Show Accelerator program totally candidly is it's not the perfect time. I've got this project going on or I'm busy or things are crazy right now. I want to wait till next month when this XYZ happens. Now, yes, sometimes it's true. It's actually not a good time, which is totally fine. Like a couple weeks ago, someone got on an accelerator interview a week after having their first child and we were like, yep, now's not a good time. You should probably focus on that. Not the best time to try to jump start your podcast. But most other times that objection, that excuse of, oh, it's not a good time, not now. I want to wait two weeks or till next month or whatever it is. That excuse is actually the reason why that podcaster needs our help. You see, that podcaster is somebody who has all the ingredients for success in podcasting. They have a vision, they have a passion, they totally have the resources to join the program. And most importantly, they really, really want to. But the only thing holding them back is that they've got themselves stuck waiting for the perfect time to grow and monetize their podcast or their business, which spoiler alert, there's no such thing. Yet many of us are perpetually waiting until next week when things are less crazy to make our dreams come true. And if that's you, I've got news. It's not going to be less crazy next week. It'll never be less crazy. Things will always be crazy and life will always get in the way. So shouldn't we get started now so that you can learn how to grow your audience and monetize while life is crazy? And even if the perfect time does magically come along in two weeks or next month, what's going to happen two weeks after that when life starts to get crazy again? Are you saying that you only want to grow your podcast and have a profitable business if the conditions are perfect? Do you really think you'll have a profitable business if you only take action when the conditions are perfect? Okay, so we've had this conversation with podcasters dozens of times. And some of them say, no, no, I really want to wait. And that's cool. But many of them said, wow, you're right. And then they joined the program. Got great results. And they sanctus for nudging them to step up when they're making an excuse. That's what's called handling an objection. And the way that you get good at handling objections is noticing which ones you hear over and over again and which ones truly are excuses. And you write them down and you remember how to handle them. AKA, point out that they don't make sense. So this is something that if you do decide to get into sponsorships, you're going to deal with as well. You're going to have to learn how to handle objections. Maybe in the future, we'll make a full episode on how to get better at that. Aside from objections, there are some other things that you do need to find out about when you get on the phone with potential sponsors. Figure out, why do they need you? And so oftentimes, I get, you know, somebody this week at call, man, like, I'm going to reach out to a sponsor. I'm going to pitch them. I'm like, cool, give me your pitch. Give it to me. I'm the sponsor. I'm a perfect fit. You've done all this stuff. And it was just like me, me, me, my podcast, my podcast award, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, dude, nobody cares if you're a Hall of Fame podcaster guru. Nobody cares. Like, what they care about is how can you help their business? So really the thing is call a sponsor and, you know, reaching out, however you found them and saying, Hey, you know, I found your company. I have this podcast. It's about saltwater fishing. And I've noticed that you and your boat dealer do this event, this event, that event, this thing. You've done your research. You know what they sponsor. You know what they promote. You know how they advertise. I'm another medium. And my podcast is catering to this person doing this with whatever, you know, like, with this goal in mind. And you're a really great fit. You know, and you tell them about their company and you tell them how great their company is and what their company is doing. And you've turned the focus on, oh, this guy is calling to talk about himself to, oh, this guy's calling to talk about me. And I'm great. I'm a great fit. And I would be awesome in my show, my business. And it really, they qualify themselves. And that's how we got sponsors. I never talked about our podcast. I never, I mean, I mentioned like, hey, here's what we're doing. Here's what we want to build. But I never really mentioned numbers. I never mentioned, you know, any of the other marketing stuff we were doing, I was just saying, Hey, you're the perfect fit for this audience that we want to build. And I think with this collaboration, we can both benefit a lot. And so I guess my tip would be like, focus on the sponsor and really do your research as to why they are, you know, the perfect fit and have that conversation. And then also ask questions like, what are you struggling with in your business with marketing? You know, your business owner trying to get people to do business with you and your marketing person now that you're trying to do this. And so learn that game, learn about business, learn about the pain points of your industry and ask those questions. And so we didn't know that, I didn't know that for like six months with one of our sponsors. I was doing kind of a follow-up and just making sure they're happy. And I was going over some stats with them just because. And I said, yeah, we're like, we reach 35 countries or whatever. And I blew past to the next thing. And they're like, whoa, what'd you say? And I'm like, oh, we reached like 35 countries and they're like, oh, this is all making sense. We should boats worldwide. And we started getting orders from different countries. And like, that's a part of a business we struggled with. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And all of a sudden, my messaging changed and they're at. And I didn't dive in though. I didn't really do a good job onboarding, you know, even though I had that upfront conversation. So it's like, really let them know I came here for you to serve you. And I think it's the same with your audience. You know, it works both on both sides of it. It's like you're this middle person who's joining these two worlds together. So you're well oiled and greased up. All right. So that elephant in the room, the thing that everyone wants to ask about and you're probably wondering about what about pricing? I feel like I'm a little bit of an innovator in the space in this industry just because if you Google how to monetize a podcast, it's all CPM, it's all numbers based. It's get 10,000 downloads blah, blah, blah. So I'm throwing mud on the wall. And I always recommend people do this. So I will take CPM rates in the consideration to make sure I'm not below because I know that's what the market would pay. So I'll take a CPM rate. You know, and if it's like, oh, okay, it's going from 18 to 50 bucks. And you know, maybe I'll come in the middle somewhere and figure out where my numbers are to make sure I'm not below that, but then typically adding 20, 30% on top of it. I think this year we went to CPM and then added like 30% you know, increase on top of that. Just because I do feel like I'm presenting a pure audience over just a giant audience. So I'm like, the conversation is, I'm the word of mouth guy from your product to my audience. They trust me. They're showing up every week. They're listening to show. They're hearing our dad jokes. They're hearing all the, you know, all the banter, all the good, the bad, the ugly. Yeah. And this is a relationship. And so it's like me going to a friend and saying, hey, Kevin, man, you got to check out the SM7V is thing is hot, you know, and you go, oh, cool. I'm going to go check it out. You know, it's like way stronger than, oh, I saw this boat on a billboard or a newspaper or Facebook ad or whatever. The key, however, that Billy says can allow you to land higher ad prices is this. Pitch your niche, not your numbers. And so, you know, once again, I think it's a really important one is a content creator is a podcaster to understand your own value. And then also understand the value of the industry you're in. If you look at the value of podcasting in general, thanks a couple of big names. I won't mention, but thank you for doing big deals and, you know, yes, Spotify, putting billions of dollars to the side to acquire some of these audio productions and all the stuff. And so there's where the money is. And so understand what a podcast listener does their behavior and speak to the industry not just to your show. And I think when, you know, when a company in a brand and I'm doing deals with small companies, I'm doing deals with, you know, a mega million dollar industries or whatever, however you say it. And the conversation is always people. And so, so if you want to pitch numbers, you want to get paid CPM, then you get to figure out how do I grow the biggest audience? You know, I mean, you get to have an audience either way, like you can't just sandbag your way to paycheck. But, you know, start small. Like we started with the $200 and episode. And however we had relationships with us people. So that was a little bit different. My partner in this thing had a track record of running a fishing newspaper for years. So there was that, you know, that value that was in there as well. It wasn't just, hey, new kids on the block, we get a fishing, but I had started the fishing podcast and sold it. It was very popular. And so those all kind of added up into our world and was leveraged for us to do a deal, you know, essentially with no listeners. But now it's like figure out who your target audience is because I think you're going to grow both way. I mean, you are the grow the show expert. Like, I listen to your podcast because I'm like, how in the world do I grow this thing more? I feel like I've done good, but how do I do great? And so, you know, it's really important to focus on your community and let your sponsor or potential sponsor know how they affect that community and why it's so important and imperative for them to be a part of the journey. And you'll find the right people and you'll find the right sponsors. And we have sponsors that reach out to us now and I tell them know every guy sponsor in my email every day that just doesn't make any sense. And I go, I'm really sorry, but this isn't a good fit. But the ones that are a good fit are signing year contracts with us, which is amazing. So, you know, it's set myself up a whole year's worth of salary for in a couple of hours, which is amazing. Just a couple of calls, you know. So yeah, it's cool, man. It's it's a lot of work. You know, I think podcasters and I was like this, man, I started I started a business podcast. I thought, man, this is going to set me off. This is going to be the thing. And then it wasn't I mean, it was cool. I made a lot of cool friends. It opened a lot of cool doors and my t-shirt printing business got some business, but it really wasn't my voice, my thing. And you know, go out there and find the right collaborations and think of it as a collaboration and trying to pitch it as partnership collaboration, not just, hey, I'm going to put you in a 15-second pre-roll and you're going to give me 100 bucks. Like nobody wants to be transactional. I mean, they might think they do or you might think they do, but they don't. And then, you know, one last thing, man, I'll say this is people do business with people. I don't care how big the brand is. I don't care how big the name is. I don't care how long they've been around. Whoever you're talking to that's going to write that check or approve that check to be written is a person. We all put our pants on the same way. We all have the same, you know, life frustrations and all this, like we're all human. So don't get so nervous that you can't talk or be yourself because I think our sponsor, it's one thing they always say, like, man, we really appreciate you guys for being who you are. Like we see other people that we know personally doing content in the fishing space and just all show, which there's always entertainment and stuff mixed, but the authenticity of who we are and the audience we're building is a part of their brand just as much as it is ours. Honestly, the coolest part about getting podcast sponsorships and keeping those relationships is just that. When you find a brand or a company that really, really aligns with what you're doing, it really is a relationship, a relationship that you enjoy that you both get mutual benefit out of and that serves your listeners as well. And if you focus on having great relationships with your sponsors instead of just focusing on how much you can charge or just focusing on the transaction, you're going to be in this for the long haul and you're going to have way more fun and make way more money. So Billy just laid out exactly what you can start doing today to start building relationships with potential sponsors and no matter where you are in your podcasting journey, whether you just launched last week or you've been at this for years with hundreds of episodes, it's always a good time to start building relationships with potential sponsors. Now, we did lay out a bunch of stuff and we talked about some things that really, really make some people uncomfortable, AKA sales. And I know that there's a really decent chance that that's a really, really scary thing. So I'm willing to bet that you'd like some extra support when entering these conversations for the first time. And if that's true, I invite you to join us in the free Grow the Show Facebook group where Billy and I both are active all the time helping podcasters grow and monetize. And so if you had any thoughts while listening to this episode about, oh, that won't work for me or oh, I'm too scared to do that. I invite you to just hop into the Grow the Show Facebook group and just make a post sharing what's going through your head, what you feel like you need help with next. And you can even tag me or Billy and we'd be happy to comment and weigh in and help you so that you can get past that roadblock and start building relationships with sponsors now. The link to join us in the Facebook group is in the show notes. Grow the Show is a Q9 production. This episode was written and produced by Catherine Nails and myself with post production by Jeremy Bishop and of course a very special thanks to Billy Thorpe. For Grow the Show, my name is Kevin Schmidland. See you next time.