70: Should You Take a Break from Podcasting?

as independent podcasters, it is hammered into our brain that in order to be successful as a podcaster, we have to be consistent. Yet, oftentimes, as podcasters, we find ourselves at a place where we have been consistent for weeks or months or even years. And given the circumstances, we could really use a break. Maybe we don't have an episode for next week. Maybe there's a vacation coming up, or maybe you just have a bunch of stuff for the podcast that you want to do. And if you could just get some time to do that, you'd make the show way better. It would grow faster, you'd make more money, but you just need some time away from producing episodes to make it happen, right? Well, in all of these cases, if you've faced them before as an independent podcaster, there's a really good chance that you were afraid to stop publishing. You were afraid to take a break and put your show on hold, right? And so what I have found through growing two of my own podcasts, past 100,000 downloads, and total past seven figures in revenue, and through helping more than 260 podcasters in my accelerator program, I have found that there are five factors that will help indicate whether it's time for you to take a break from publishing your podcast. This is Grow the Show. My name is Kevin Schmittland. I am your podcast growth coach. And today, I'm going to help you decide whether it's okay for you to take a break from publishing your show or not. There are five criteria that I look for when deciding whether or not it's okay to break the consistency role and take a break from publishing your podcast. So today, I'm going to map out what those five criteria are. And by the end of this piece, you will be better equipped to make the decision to either stay consistent, power through, and keep publishing or take a break. And at the end of this, I'm actually going to share a hack that will let you do both at the same time. But first, before we get into those criteria and whether or not you can or should take a break, I'm going to tell you about three moments that I faced in my independent podcast and journey, where I had to decide whether or not to take a break. This episode of Grow the Show is sponsored by rifferside.fm, the leading platform to record studio quality podcasts. More than 70,000 other podcasters use Riverside, including myself, GuyRaz, GaryVee, Spotify, and even the New York Times. Riverside is not only great because it has unbelievably high recording quality, regardless of your or your guests internet quality, but it also gives you separate audio and video tracks for each person speaking. It's high tech, but easy to use. Unlike Zoom, you don't have to have anything installed on your computer and your guests don't either. And did I mention that the audio quality is way better? If you're recording your interviews remotely, get off of Zoom now and hop into Riverside for your next interview. Your listeners will thank you. Head over to Riverside.fm and use code Grow that's GROW to get 60 free minutes of recording and 15% off a membership plan. The link is in the show notes. The first moment was nine months after I originally launched my first podcast that show was called Phillyhoo. It's about my hometown of Philadelphia. And nine months after releasing episodes, I had not missed a single week. I had released on Christmas. I had worked on the show while I was on vacation. I satisfied the almighty consistency rule because I was an independent podcaster. I was a newbie and everyone that I got podcasting advice from said, you gotta be consistent. Don't miss a week. If you be consistent, your show will grow. Yet, after nine months of consistency, my show was not growing and I was confused. I was like, what gives? I've been consistent. I've published every single week and yet my downloads are going down, not up. I thought I'd be inconsistent. My show would grow. So I faced a moment where I was like, okay, I've been doing the same thing for nine months. I spent about 40 hours a week on this podcast. I didn't have a job. I had quit my job. No kids. No significant other. Just me in the show. And I was like, all right, what I'm doing now isn't working. I feel like I should just stop and take a break from publishing and break the almighty consistency rule and figure this out. The second time I faced this decision was a year after that. By then, I had figured it out. My podcast Philly Hu had garnered more than 100,000 downloads in that year. It had generated more than 120,000 dollars in revenue that year. And I was burnt out. Now we're at a point where I had published more than 70 episodes of this really, really heavily produced show. By then I had a couple teammates. I had a couple of people working for the show. I had sponsors. There was a lot to do. And I was really, really starting to get burnt out. It started to feel like every episode of my show was the same. And my level of excitement was dipping another moment that I faced where I needed to decide whether to take a break was actually two weeks ago. And so it was July 2022. And I was at a place where the Grow the Show podcast was doing great. It had generated over the course of a year and a half more than a million dollars from my coaching business. It had garnered well over 100,000 downloads. Great retention rates, tons of five star reviews, a thriving email list of over 16,000, a thriving Facebook community of over 3000. And I was like, you know what? I need to take a break. In all three of those scenarios, I did the first time I faced that scenario when I was most afraid to take a break. What happened was I put the show on hold. At that point, I was in financial debt. I wasn't making any money. I had no job. The show wasn't growing. And I said, okay, clearly the consistency role is not doing for me what I thought it would do. So I'm going to stop publishing for a couple weeks, learn as much as I can about what successful podcasters actually do. And then implement those actions. And that's exactly what I did. I took six weeks off from the show, read some books, got in touch with some podcasting legends, listened to every single podcast on the top 100 charts on Apple podcasts at that time. And I noticed patterns and I figured out, oh, the way that most independent podcasters are taught to grow their show actually doesn't work. And so if I emulate podcasters who are successful and I do it, they do to get more listeners and to monetize and to make a great show, then maybe mine will do those things too. And that's exactly what happened. So first time had to consider taking a break did take the break. It wound up being all the difference in the world. And if you have ever heard me talk before, you've probably heard that story already. The second time though, I haven't talked about as much, which is a year later after the show hadn't made it. It had made six figures in revenue in a year. It had surpassed the six figure download mark. Things were rocking and rolling. The show started to get really, really popular in my home city of Philadelphia. I was starting to land guests that I never imagined I can get onto the show. And I was burnt out. I was tired of it. I didn't want to do another interview. They started all sounding the same to me. My passion for the show had died. And I thought, I think it's time to take a break. Now, having learned the power of taking a break, I did that. I put on the Philly who feed. Hey, I'm a little burnt out. I'm going to take a break for a little while the show will be back in May or March or something like that. Now, that actually didn't wind up going to plan because literally one month after I took that break, COVID happened, which threw everything for a loop. But the break served its purpose in that after just two weeks of being completely off from the show. I already was starting to get excited and have ideas for what I can do, how I can change the show, new people I can talk to. And so second time, two for two, the break served its purpose. The third time, literally two weeks ago, I faced a similar dilemma. Now, this time, I wasn't necessarily feeling burnt out on the Grow the Show podcast, but I am running a seven figure business that is Grow the Show. We recently hired some new folks, so the Grow the Show company now has 14 team members, which is absolutely incredible. And if I'm being honest, being the CEO of a company with 14 employees that's at a above a million dollar a year run rate is stressful. And so what I found is that the Grow the Show podcast I felt was being neglected, right? Which is kind of ironic because I'm the help you grow your podcast guy. So Catherine and I had a conversation. Catherine is the producer here at Grow the Show. We had a conversation in July that said, look, there's a lot of ideas that we have for the show. There's a lot of stuff we want to try, things we want to implement, dream guests we want to go after, new processes we want to test. And because of Catherine and I both taking different times off, we were behind on production. So we were at a place where I would have to record an episode that we would publish the next week and we were just struggling to get ahead of the schedule. So we had a conversation, we said, you know what? I think we need to take a break from publishing. And so what did we do over that break? We completely reimagined the Grow the Show podcast. We had a couple of long sessions where we sat down and said, okay, what is working with the Grow the Show podcast? What do we want to improve? And let's dream big. What are the cool amazing things that we would love to do with this show? Who are the dream big guests that we'd love to invite and hear from? What are the cool new pieces of content and content structures that we'd like to try out? What are new experiential ways of growing the audience that we'd like to try? It was a super super fun conversation. And what was great about it is that we alleviated the pressure of publish, publish, publish, come on, we got to get content out. We got to get content out and gave ourselves room to think. So here we are today with new ideas. You're going to hear way more in the coming weeks about what's coming here for the Grow the Show podcast. But today I want to share with you the five criteria that I use when deciding for myself whether to take a break and stop publishing for a time and that I use when advising Grow the Show accelerator students on whether not the time is right for them to take a break. And so I'm going to explain those to you now. And in retrospect it's going to make the three stories I just told make way more sense. So what are the five criteria that I use to decide whether it is time or isn't time to take a break from publishing new episodes of your podcast? Well, you can remember it this way. A B C D E, acceleration, backlog, cost, debt, and energy. Let's go into those five. So the first one is acceleration. And really a better name for this would probably be M, but M B C D E is super weird. So we're going to use acceleration. And so basically it's is your show currently accelerating in growth, right? Is your listenership accelerating or is your monetization accelerating? If it is not that basically means that something is broken because any successful thriving podcast business is always doing three things. Number one, creating and publishing podcast episodes efficiently that listeners love. Number two, getting new listeners to find out about that show for the first time regularly. And number three, regularly and predictably generating revenues that the show pays for itself and kicks off a profit. If you don't have all three of those things, then the podcast business gears are not all turning. And the show is likely doesn't have any momentum and it's more of a drag on yourself and your finances, right? So if you're somebody who isn't making a great show or who show isn't growing or who show is not king off any revenue, then I would argue that the acceleration is not the momentum is not where you want it to be. So that's number one is your show's momentum and acceleration where it should be. Number two, B is backlog. How big is your current backlog of produced content? So how far ahead are you on content creation? Are you ahead? Right? Are you ahead by how much? Are you rushing to stay ahead and publish stuff every single week? If you're like most of us, that's you. Ideally, what I found is that I am most comfortable with the podcast and I really have the most fun with the podcast when I am at minimum two weeks ahead of publishing schedule where an episode is done and ready to be published two weeks or more before it gets published. And really the sweetest spot where I really have enjoyed being the podcast with the most has been when episodes are complete four to six weeks ahead of publishing, which I have not achieved that since my Philly Who days when it was a much smaller team. That's something I expired to get to at Grow the Show. But that's it. How long is your backlog? Now, I can tell you right now, running and growing a seven figure business and operating a podcast, we've been pretty behind on the backlog regularly. Like we have not, we have never been super ahead of the backlog here at Grow the Show. And so that's one of the reasons why we decided to take a break more on that in a minute. So A is acceleration. B is backlog. C is cost. How much would it cost you to stop publishing? Consistency rules aside, if your show is already monetized and already kicking off revenue in some way, shape or form, it will cost you to stop publishing new episodes. So for my example, for Grow the Show, this podcast is monetized in two ways. The first way is through converting a percentage of listeners to paid students in my accelerator program. And the second way is through paid advertisements. So right now our only advertiser is Riverside. You've heard the Riverside ad already on this episode. And so if we stop publishing episodes here on Grow the Show, there's two costs that I would incur. Number one, it might lead fewer people to apply to the accelerator program. The weeks that I'm not publishing because fewer people are going to hear about the accelerator program, right? That one's a little bit more indirect. The direct one is when you have paid sponsorships and you get paid per ad that runs. Obviously, if you're not running ads, you're not going to get paid. So in this case, when we decided to take a break, we actually had to reach out to our partner Riverside and let them know that even though we had agreed to publish episodes on a certain date, we need to take a break. The second cost is we have sponsorships here on the Grow the Show podcast. And so we get paid every time that sponsored ad runs. So if it doesn't run, we don't get paid. So the third thing cost you must consider how much will it cost you to not publish episodes. Now, if you're not monetized, it's not going to cost you anything to not publish episodes. So keep that in your back pocket for debt. So I don't mean debt in a financial manner. I mean, just overall, where do you owe, right? So are there any changes that you'd like to make to the show, but you don't feel like you have time, right? So that's like idea debt. You've had ideas, but you haven't been able to implement them because you've been too busy doing other stuff or maybe show quality debt. Your show is behind because you haven't been able to put thought into really, really good episodes, right? So there is a debt between where you should be with your quality and where you're not. So again, I really like how there's an entrepreneur named Alex Ramose, who's really popular right now. You may or may not have heard of him, but he talks about the different places of debt and a business, right? There's financial debt, but there's also leadership debt. Basically debt is anything that you're behind on, right? Any initiatives that you should have done by now, any work that you're behind of, that's debt. So it's not just financial debt. It's just, are you behind? Do you have strategy debt, where you really haven't taken time to think about your strategy for a long time? All right, do you have marketing debt for your podcast, where you really haven't marketed your show at all, right? And you really should be doing that. So think of debt as being behind on work other than publishing. And then the last one is E energy. How do you feel about the show? How is your energy level for the show doing? Is it high? Is it low? Do you feel like I felt in December 2019 and your energy is just at the bottom and you're just tired of it and you really need to take some time away? Or is your energy where it should be where you're excited about the podcast? So that's your energy level. So those are the five criteria that I use. And essentially those are the ones that go into whether I consider taking a break. So for those things, acceleration, backlog, cost, debt, and energy. So I consider, and I recommend clients consider taking a break when any of the following are true. Backlog, acceleration or momentum is low. So the show is not growing and it's not monetized. And or the backlog is low. So you're just really rushing to get content created and you're just constantly beating your deadlines. So that means your backlog is low. The cost to taking a break is low. So you don't have sponsors or you're just not going to incur a significant financial cost if you stop publishing right now. Debt is high. Again, not financial debt, but you're just behind on stuff other than producing episodes because you haven't given yourself the time to do that. Or energy is low where you're just really feeling burnt out. Your nose has been to the grindstone and you're just not feeling it right now. So for you, if you're someone who is considering taking a break, where do you fall on those five criteria? How is your momentum? Is your show growing or is it not? If your momentum is high and your show is growing, it's probably not a good idea to stop right now. That's when you really want to push harder and keep going, right? Because momentum is not lost or gained. It is built and maintained. If your backlog is low or high, really, you could consider taking a break. But the reason why I oftentimes decide to actually take a break when my backlog is low, a break from publishing is so that I can use that time to build up a base and a backlog of content because it is nearly impossible to like if I'm used to making four episodes in a month and I get behind and I want to be two months ahead. As much as I tell myself I will do this, it is virtually impossible to make eight episodes in a month. So in order for me to get ahead, I would have to publish at twice the rate. And normally if I'm behind, I'm tired. And so for me, the best way to shortchange getting ahead of publishing is to just stop publishing for a month, create the content at the same rate as I usually do. And then boom, I instantly have a backlog of four weeks. Again, it's easier to take a break if cost is low. If it costs you a lot to stop, then stick around to the end of this piece. And I'll share the hack that will allow you to take a break while not losing out financially. If your debt is high, you're just totally behind on strategy. You've been meaning to rethink things. You have a bunch of other work that you have to do, but you've just been stuck producing episodes. Then I generally recommend considering stopping production, taking a break and getting that stuff done. And then finally, when your energy is low, when you're just have had it and you just need to take some time away from the show, it's okay to do that. It's all right. Podcasting is not easy and it relies on a lot of passion. So if you find the passion stores to be low, that doesn't mean you should quit. And that doesn't mean you should never work on the show and you're not feeling passionate. Because if you want this to be a thriving business, you have to get good at podcasting when you don't feel like it. And if you only work when you're feeling passionate, you're not going to work enough to get what you want. Having said that, there, of course, energy management is important and there are times when it is beneficial to just take some time away from your podcast so that you can go rest and bring something new back to the podcast. So having said that, think about where you are with those five points. Where do you fall? And then from there, consider it. Is it time for you to take a break? In general, what I'll say is that those five criteria usually combine into two scenarios where it's a good idea to take a break. And I call them a rest break or a strategy break. So we get a lot of people who join the Grow the Show podcast accelerator who get inside the program. We start working with them one-on-one to develop a growth strategy and an implementation plan for them. And what they discover is, wow, there's a lot of changes that we want to make to the show right now and to our system so that we can grow faster and monetize faster. So what we're going to do is actually take a break in producing content and publishing content for a month so that we can implement all these changes and set up a better system that'll make it way easier to grow and monetize the show, right? In that case, it's not that they don't have energy. In fact, they have more energy and it's not like they just need to rest. It's actually no. I'm going to stop producing episodes because I want to make a tons of changes to this machine. And then once those changes are made, I'll bring the show back. So that's a strategy break, really, really useful. And then the other category of break is a rest break where you just need to take a vacation. Take a break from the show. You want to do this long term, right? So give yourself some time to rest. Now, hopefully through that framing, you're in a place where you can decide if you're really feeling like you need one, whether it is a good idea to take a rest break or a strategy break. But if you do decide to do that, I want to warn you of three pitfalls. Three things that I see podcasters do all the time that defeat the purpose of the break or make it a bad move. The first one is this. When you take a strategy break, you must be careful not to wait until you get it right to bring the show back. This is a huge mistake that I see all the time because here's the thing. You're never going to get it right. You're not going to be able to stop the show, go into your cave, tinker for months and months on end, make the perfect podcast system and then release it to the world. In actuality, it's going to take some iteration, right? It's going to take releasing an episode, trying some new stuff, iterate, iterate, iterate, and the show will grow that way. So what you don't want to do is get yourself in a mindset where you can't act strategically unless you're on a break. That's dangerous. You're still going to need to be able to do strategic things and you're going to need to bake in strategy, growth, and monetization as well as production into your monthly schedule. But if your strategy debt is high and you really just need to take some time to do that, take the break, but be sure to set a deadline for when the show will come back because that brings up pitfall number two, getting too comfortable taking a break. And the best analogy for this is for those of you who have attended college, remember the first time you skipped class, how scary that was and how bad you felt. You're like, oh my gosh, I'm supposed to be in class right now that college is so expensive. Oh my goodness. And maybe you didn't feel that way. But for me, I did. The first time I skipped class in college, I was terrified. I was like, oh no, I didn't want anybody to know. I hid in my room. But here's the thing. It was really fun to skip class fast forward to senior year and it was really hard to go to any class, right? It's a very, very slippery slope. So think about for those of you who went to college, think about the slippery slope that was skipping class. How at first it was every once in a while, but as you went, it got easier and easier. Till it got to the point where it was impossible to get your butt to class in the first place. The same thing is true here. If you always take a break and you don't push yourself to be consistent as a podcaster, it's really easy to get comfortable not publishing. And so I have seen podcasters take a break, fall a little bit too much in love with not having the pressure of a release schedule and not having to push themselves to be consistent and put out great content. And then for the rest of their days, they are totally inconsistent and can't get themselves back on to a regular cadence. So watch out for that. Watch out for that second pitfall. Don't get too comfortable during the break. The third pitfall is kind of the opposite. I hear a lot of podcasters who like, okay, I'm going to take a break for three months. And during that three months, I'm going to republish a bunch of episodes. I'm going to make a best of. I'm going to make this other episode and publish it then. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not taking a break. You're just changing the types of episodes that you're releasing. So if you do decide to take a break, beware the third pitfall, which is not actually taking a break. And this is for those of you who are aiming to take a rest break more than a strategy break. If you are taking a rest break, freaking rest. Do not touch the show. Don't worry about publishing to social media the whole time. That's another one that I see. Oh, but I want to keep posting on Instagram because I don't want to lose my momentum. Take the freaking break. When you come back refreshed, having not spent any time or energy on the show after a month, any little bit of momentum that you lose, you'll gain back very, very quickly. You'll be better off for it. Now, having said that, a couple of FAQs frequently asked questions that I get all the time from podcasters about taking the break. FAQ number one, how long should I take a break for? Well, first of all, you should decide, is it a rest break, is it a strategy break, or is it both? Because sometimes it's valid to do both. Take a month off, take a month of strategy, then bring the show back. So that's number one. Set the amount of time that you feel like you need to achieve what you need to achieve in the break. And then set a deadline for when the show will come back. So that's tip number one. When you decide to put your podcast on break, before you go on break, decide the day that the show will return and do not move that deadline. You must decide before you start the break and then you must not move the deadline. What that's going to do is it's going to help you avoid getting too comfortable during the break. And it's also going to allow you to pick up production when you need to. Because that's another thing that I've seen time and time again. Someone's like, all right, I'm going to take a month off from the show, right? They take a month off. And then they're like, oh, no, I'm totally behind. And if they want to start publishing again, they need another month to start publishing content. So planning out in advance, I say generally one to three months is the sweet spot. Three months is the absolute maximum. I don't recommend taking a break more than three months unless your show is usually totally seasonal. But that's generally what I see. That's the length of break that I recommend. The second one is, but if I take a break, isn't my audience going to disappear? No, totally not going to happen. Ask any show that is seasonal. Many of the best and biggest podcasts ever created are totally seasonal. And they published 12 episodes over the course of three months. They don't publish for nine months. They publish again. Didn't lose any audience. You're not going to lose any audience in a month. Your audience is not sitting around waiting for you to create more content. I hear fellow content influencers all the time give advice. Like, make sure you keep publishing so you stay top of mind or so that, you know, because your audience is dying for content. And I'm like, I don't know. I feel like if I don't publish, some people will notice, yes. But really, we're just all bombarded with content all the time. Nobody's going to notice and take a break. So just take the freaking break. The third question is, okay, do I tell my audience, how do I go about doing that? I do recommend letting your audience know that you're going to take a break. Now, I will grant to you, grow the show listener, that two weeks ago when we decided to take a break ourselves, we did not let the audience know. The reason why we did that is because it was only two weeks. So we're like, we're going to take two weeks off to get our heads on straight and then we're going to bring the show back. So I just didn't take the time to be like, hey, everyone, we're going to be gone for two weeks just because I don't know. But you could argue that I should have done that because I'm sure some of you were like, what the heck? Where's my new grow the show episode? I'm not perfect. I generally do recommend that you let your audience know. And next time I take a break, I will let you guys know. Okay. And the last thing, the hack that I mentioned earlier, I alluded to it earlier in this conversation. And so you might have picked up on it, but there will be some people who really need to take a break, but their cost to not publishing is high. Maybe they have a business and the podcast is a huge piece of that business or maybe their monetized via ads. And if they stop publishing episodes, they stop making money. If that is the case, consider republishing your greatest hits. This is something that we do here at Grow the Show. We did it. Philly, who Eric Newsom, the guest number one of the show, the author of Make Noise, really incredible book. He basically built the podcasting division at NPR. He said that he had NPR commission a research team to figure out what would happen if a popular show published reruns. And they spent thousands of dollars researching and what they found is nobody cared. In fact, many people who listened to the show were grateful that the greatest hits were republished because they had never heard those episodes before. And I'm sure you listen to podcasts that have republished popular episodes before you don't get mad and never listen to the show again. You might not listen that week, which is cool, but I can say from experience when a show that I love publishes a greatest hits, either I have heard it and I am excited to hear it again or I haven't heard it. And I'm excited to hear it for the first time. So the ultimate hack is this. If you need to take a break, but you don't want to break your publishing cadence, simply republish the greatest hits episode of your podcast. Your audience will thank you. They're not going to be mad. A lot of people who hear it will be hearing it for the first time and you will get some really, really valuable time back that you can either use for strategy to build out new initiatives to improve your podcast growth techniques or to monetize or to just rest and take a break. Having said all this, I would like to just wrap up with a comment on consistency. As independent podcasters, like I said out of the gate, it has been drilled into our brains that in order to be successful as a podcaster that you must be consistent above all else. And yes, that is true. I'm not here telling you that it's okay to be inconsistent. I'm telling you that it's okay to take a break from being consistent for a time, right? Or at least be consistent in the breaks that you take. Remember, consistency is indeed absolutely crucial to success as an independent podcaster. However, consistency alone is unlikely by itself to bring you success. That consistency has to also come with good strategy, good learning, getting good at testing something out, seeing if it works and either doing more of that thing that works or changing what you're doing. And so if you're somebody who has been doing the same thing over and over again for a year and you've gotten the same results, no relationship, no monetization, doing something that doesn't work consistently is not going to make it work, right? You have to consistently do things that work. So my message to you is, yes, stay consistent, be consistent. If you absolutely must, if you need to rest or you need time for strategy, take a break from your show because being inconsistent alone is also not going to destroy your show. The rest is good, strategy is good. So I know this was a lot. Hopefully this was helpful in summary. Just remember, ABCDE is your show accelerating. If it is not, consider taking a break to figure it out. It's your backlog of content. Hi, if it is low, consider taking a break so you can get ahead. Is the cost to taking a break low? If that's the case, great. If it's high, maybe republish. Do you have high levels of strategy debt, meaning you are behind on improving your show or putting together a great audience growth strategy or figuring out how to monetize, then consider taking a break. And finally, is your energy low? Are you sick of this? Are you burnt out? Are you tired of it not working? If so, consider taking a break, but don't take too long of a break and don't give up. Use the break to take some time to figure out what works and learn strategies that will actually grow your audience and actually help you monetize. So there you have it, a mental model to help you decide whether the time is right to take a break. We just use this here at Grow the Show to take a break. And it has been wonderful. Catherine and I have tons of great ideas that we are excited to share with you. And you're about to see the Grow the Show podcasting presence and social media presence totally up level. Really excited to share that with you. And so that is that. So if you're still not sure about whether the time is right for you to take a break, I invite you to join us in the Grow the Show Facebook group. We've got over 3,000 growth mining podcasters there, some of whom have successfully taken breaks and who are waiting for you to ask for their advice. So hop into that group. Let us know what your situation is and whether or not you're considering taking a break and we can weigh in based on our experience on whether or not we think you should. So I hope to see you in the three Facebook group. And of course, if you got any value from this episode, I really, really beg you to rate and review. Let me know on Spotify and Apple podcasts. If that's where you're listening, that this episode was the one that brought you value and clarity. And if it didn't, don't leave a rating, but let me know anyway. So that's it. My name is Kevin Schmidland. This has been Grow the Show. Thank you so much for listening. And we will see you in the next one.