244 | Why Copying Top Podcasters is Bad for Growth, with Andy J. Pizza

Most podcasters try to compete by copying the biggest shows in the world, like Steven Bartlett, Mel Robbins, and Chris Williamson. You can't help but notice that they're polished, consistent, fully optimized. And this comparison probably makes you feel a little insecure. But what if the thing that's different about your podcast? What you might think is a flaw is actually the reason your show could grow. Today, you'll see how that's exactly what keeps you invisible. When it comes to trying to be interesting and trying to stand out, we really discredit and look over the journeys and the ways that we started not so great, whereas those are the best places for us to be a god to other people. That's Andy J. Pizza. He's the host of Creative Pepp talk, a podcast that's reached tens of thousands of creators worldwide. But Andy actually didn't start out his creative career as a podcaster. He originally became known as an illustrator, but get this. He's partially colorblind. Probably when I was younger, I would have seen that as something I got to overcompensate. I got to find, what's the rules? How do I stick within the way that everybody else does it? And then eventually I realized, I have to like the thing that I make. It has to work for me. Andy has built a thriving creative career because of his differences, not in spite of them. And today, he's going to show you how to do the same. In this episode, you're going to learn how to find what makes your podcast unique, why copying the biggest shows kills your growth and how to turn your flaws into your brand's biggest strength. You have to be willing to do stuff your heroes wouldn't do because if you won't, your thing is not different and it will not get into that top five of people's podcasts. So if you've ever wondered why your podcast isn't growing yet, stick around because this conversation might just flip your whole strategy. My name is Kev Michael and this is Grow the Show. Recently, I published an episode of Grow the Show that told everybody that podcasting is the most competitive thing on the planet. And that is because podcast listeners have room for like maybe four, five shows that they can listen to regularly. And we are competing with Joe Rogan and Diary of the CEO and Mel Robbins. So you have recently shared something that I have found really encouraging in light of that fact and an actual tactical way for people to compete with the biggest and best shows in the world. So how would you recommend a podcast or do that? You know, I think I'm a big believer in like leaning into your strengths and being and kind of emphasizing those and making sure that as you're moving through the market that you're considering, what am I good at? What am I competitive at? But I also think that we probably over index on that. We think about it. I think it's great in terms of you don't want to set out on a career that you're really unqualified for. It's a good thing to consider. But when you get past like the industry you choose or the market within that industry, when you get past those things, those things are going to be more determined by what you're good at, what you're capable at. But when it comes to standing out within that market, then I think it's okay to start leaning into the places that you're actually kind of weak and the ways that you've grown. Because those are the journeys that you've gone on. And I don't know about you, but if I'm at a party and I'm having a conversation with somebody and they're talking about how fit they are. And I'm like, dude, awesome. What'd you do? And they're like, you have just always been like this. That's like the end of the conversation. Like I am not interested anymore. Sometimes I actually go to the gym and I look around. I think how many people here just look like this, but they go to the gym just so that they can tell people like, yeah, I go to the gym so they can take credit for it. You know what I mean? Like that's not interesting. And so when it comes to trying to be interesting and trying to stand out, we really discredit and look over the journeys and the ways that we started not so great. Whereas those are the best places for us to be a guide to other people. That's the thing I think a lot about not ignoring what I've come from or where I'm weak or how I'm different. And the truth is, I think we have an unconscious behavior that wants us to minimize our differences. Because we have that evolutionary thing that says, belong at all costs. How do I measure up to these other huge podcasters? You don't want to think about all the ways that you don't. But those actually can be an advantage. Yeah. What you're saying reminds me of I worked with a trainer in Miami. And I don't know. When I was 16, I weighed like over 300 pounds. And so that was like fitness has always been a thing in my life, like a constant struggle going back and forth. And I remember like the dude's just totally ripped. And I remembered like I was like, I like asked him a question and he was just like, I don't know. I just have always gone to the gym. I've always had abs. I'm like, oh my god. I'm like, you can't help me. Right. And it almost like I love the dude. He's become a friend, but it makes it hard to even like listen to his advice. Because I'm like, you have no idea what I'm grappling with. So I recently, like in preparing for this episode, you know, I've caught up many times. Yeah. And in preparing for this episode, I learned something about you that fits into this that I didn't actually know. Yeah. Because I know you as initially being, you know, this pro illustrator who's worked with unbelievable clients over the, you know, 15 years moved into podcasting, incredible creator. But it turns out that you're partially colorblind. Yeah. So how the heck does somebody who's partially colorblind established such a successful career as an illustrator? Well, not only that, like I get, I get compliments on my color choices, almost all the time. And it's so funny because there's a temptation to feel like an imposter. Because I'm like, Hey, by the way, like I'm red green colorblind. It's like a color deficiency. And it really is probably why my color choices are so weird. And that's the thing that makes them different. And so I think probably when I was younger, I would have seen that as something I got overcompensate. I got to find what are the, what's the rules? How do I stick within the way that everybody else does it? And then eventually I realized, like, I have to like the thing that I make. It has to work for me. And what ends up happening is it ends up just being really different to everybody else. And so yeah, I think that that's a pretty clear example of how your weakness can become your strength. But the key is you have to be willing to look at it. You have to be willing to own. Like for me, I'm a podcaster in Columbus, Ohio. And one of the things that I've had to think about a lot is I'm not on the coast. I'm not in all the big media circles. And what are the ways in which that gives me a unique edge. And I think it even plays out like when I move to the city that I'm in now, which is right outside Columbus, I needed to talk to the people that were also transplants. I didn't need to know who's the person that knows everything about the city they've always lived here. Because they don't know where I'm coming from. And I think often if you are willing to be vulnerable with these are the things that like either I don't know or I had to overcome. Now you're speaking a language to people that also need to go on a journey. Does that make sense? Yes. And when I work with folks, one of the first things I do with everyone, as I say, we have to get really clear behind what is the point A that your audience is in now. And what is the point B that you are going to bring them to? And one of the most powerful things that that podcaster entrepreneur creator can do is pick a really specific point A and almost build around that tribe. And it's almost always best if you are or were in that point A. I'm curious though what we're talking about today is being able to lean into those deficiencies. When you first started illustrating like at what point in the illustration journey for you, did you start to see that deficiency of partial colorblindness as an advantage? Yeah, something to lean into. I think that there's a natural process of stages that happen on a creative journey. They don't all happen the same way every time. But I think a big part like there's a great, there's a great Miles Davis quote about how you spend the first half of your creative journey chasing your influences and the second half running away from them because you're trying to escape the way that you've been influenced, right? Every any person that's ever made anything knows the truth of that. And so I think that there is a beginning stage where maybe it's a little bit less conscious and you're just passionate and you're loving it and you're loving the people's work and you want to be a part of this thing. And so that period of time I think is really necessary where you're really just trying to belong. You're trying to show that you can hang, you fit in, you can do it. But then there comes a time where you're going to have to break free because you're going to hit that ceiling of, okay, now you can do it as well as they can do it to a degree, but they're already doing it. It's not going to give you any competitive edge. And I feel like for me, you know, you're talking about that point A to point B, whenever I do like a story workshop, that's what I start people with is that that is the, that's act one and act three of a story. Like the character starts here, they end there. And what happens in the middle is the conflict and the action and that's the story. And so I always think in story. And when I think about it through the lens of like the hero's journey, there comes a time where Luke disobeying Yoda was exactly what he had to do to figure out what kind of hero he was going to be. So there comes a, if you're not super familiar with empire strikes back, there comes a time where Yoda's like, you can't leave to say Han and Leia and Luke's like, that's what I'm doing. That's the moment he becomes his unique hero. And that's what you have to do as a business owner. You have to say, you know, they're one of the big like dumb but symbolic shifts for me, what happened in like 2014. I accidentally became anti J pizza. So that's the name that's on all of my picture books. But I didn't do it on purpose. My real name is anti J Miller. And if I go to the local gym here and I tell them I'm anti J Miller or I'm anti Miller, they'll be like, okay, there's 10 of them. What else can you tell us? Like there's just so many people that are named Andrew Miller. And so I couldn't get a website, couldn't get a hand Instagram handle, I couldn't get anything. And eventually they came out with instead of dot com, you could do dot pizza. And I was like, all right, I'll make it anti J dot pizza because I love pizza. And then people just thought that was my name. And I was like, and the thing is I had to decide, honestly, it felt as dumb as it sounds, it felt like a betraying of Yoda because all of my heroes, that would have been beneath them. All of my heroes are like indie artists that are just like the coolest people and, you know, went to Cal Arts and just have these amazing shows and all this stuff. So many of my influences were that. And I knew this was like, this is a moment where it's very, it actually works really well for me. But it might lower their opinion of me. The people that are my heroes might actually, and I think that's a breaking point. You would have to be willing to do stuff your heroes wouldn't do. Yeah. Because if you won't, your thing is not different and it will not get into that top five of people's podcasts. Oh, this, this resonates so deeply. There's, there's a handful of, you know, parasocial creators whose voice is in my head all the time. And for a lot of people, it's Alex Harmosey telling them they need to work harder. For a lot of people, it's Gary Vee telling them that they need to grind or whatever it might be. And for some people, it's me. I've found out some people that I'm in that voice in their head, which and I've never met them. So it's just this funny thing. And the thought of disappointing this imaginary Harmosey in my head is so scary. But it sounds like what you're saying is that that I am not Harmosey. And therefore the key for me, like I've proven that I can hang in the online business world. But the next move is to actually do something that Harmosey would disapprove of quote unquote, which actual Harmosey doesn't give a heck and would probably be like, do whatever you want. But it's this, it's this construct. Is that what you're saying we have to do? I'm absolutely saying that. I mean, it's this thing of I come from the arts world. And sometimes when I tell someone, when they're, when someone's telling me like, I really want to do this thing, but nobody in my industry does that. I'm always like, that's the point. Amazing. The whole idea. There is, if you tell me like, what do you call an artist that doesn't want to stand out? You say, I don't know, but I don't call them an artist because that's the freaking job. The job is you have to be willing to kind of disobey the rules and come up with your own. You don't need to just like be different on without a purpose. You need to think about, like, what is, what is the thing about this that wouldn't serve who you used to be or who you are now? And how can you be that for somebody else? Because that's the validity of your practice. Okay. I want to bring this into tactical terms for folks who maybe aren't there yet. And, you know, they, they aren't at that level where it's like, okay, now it's time for, I've got there and it's time for me to go my own way. Yeah. I used to talk a lot about what I call having a cat one premise. And I stopped talking about it in that way just because nobody knew what that meant. And what I like, honestly, well, when I explain to people, get it, which is, you know, your show should be in truthfully, truthfully in a category of one. And the majority of podcasters that I meet get to know who come to me for help, their show is very copycat. It's the same guests. It's the same structure. Nowadays, it's all dire. Everyone's trying to be dire. We see, yo, but previously, it was pretty, it was other shows that they're trying to be like. So what I'd love you to do is share with us for the, the listener who is like, okay, I understand this. I'm actually excited by the prospect of leaning into my deficiencies. Yeah. These things that I've been telling myself are the reason that I'm being held back. How do they operationalize looking at those and leaning I think it starts with, like you said, having a list of the people in your market or your genre or what your movement that you're within, having that list of a good three to four people where you're like, this is kind of these are my market models. These are my comps. This is what I'm trying to do generally. And then make what I would try to find is a pattern between them to be like, what do they all have? And then look at what you have and see if there's any gap. And then you have to make a decision. There's some of those things where like when it came to drawing, some of those things, I was like, I just have to get better at drawing like I'm an illustrator. They're all better than me. I need to get better at that. But then there were others where it's like, I'm not moving to California. I like Ohio. Now, how can I make that part of what I do? I can give an example with the podcast actually. Yeah. I would listen to one of my favorite podcasts as Mike Burbiglia is working it out. I'm a big comedy nerd. And I also even more so storytelling. So he's really my jam. And I love their format. But he once had the producer Jack Antonov on his show who is Taylor Swiss big collaborator. And he has his own band that's really successful. He's in the band fun. And he had Jack Antonov on and Jack did the podcast theme song for Mike's show. And it's because they go way back. They're both from New Jersey. They knew each other before either of them really took off. And there was just this huge like at first, my my reaction to that was like, damn, that must be nice. It's so cool. How could I be like that? And that's that initial impulse to be like, how do I bridge the gap? I have to figure that out. And then I've learned that sometimes you have to squidge the gap, which when I started saying that I was like, I don't even know if that's a word. I know if it's a British thing, my wife's British. Maybe that's where I got it. But squidging means embracing. You got to embrace the gap. And I thought, wait a second. What's cool about this is that they're from New Jersey. They have a similar sensibility. They've owned this little movement in this in this group. And I thought, what are the ways in which I could do that and own being from Ohio? And actually, my theme song was already by an artist from Ohio that it's probably my favorite artist. I found him when I was in college in the UK, got super obsessed. The band called why his name is Joni Wolf. He'd already done that. I was already using a little bit of his music for the theme song. But it was that moment where I was like, I am tripling down on this. And I paid him to write a jingle for it. That's kind of silly and weird. And I also licensed out 10 other songs. So all the music on the podcast is this band. And that's an example of like owning Ohio. And I know some people will start my podcast and hear that jingle and be like, no, actually the comment on my YouTube. Now I have thought about it enough because you talk a lot about the intro. And I get it. And I try to I try to manage that. But there are some people where you're like, yeah, I don't I don't want you listening. And actually, in order for that, then there are other people that listen to like, boom, I was in second 10. And I'm like, okay, there you go. That's so funny, because I'm preparing for this conversation. I went to the YouTube and it was the theme song right away. And I'm like, oh, okay, this goes against the grain of what I say. I love it. Just to just summarize the framework, because I just love the framework that you created for people to find their deficiency. I always do that with their quotes, because we're learning that they're actually their strengths. And it sounds like you're saying you number one, you make the list of four to five comps. So for me, that's probably harmosy. I'll probably throw Jay Clausen there. I compare myself to him a lot. There's a handful of others. And then notice what they all have the same about what they do, right? And then almost convert those into strengths, I think. I think the first thing you got to do is, so yeah, that you almost had it exactly right. I would think about a little bit differently, but you get your list, you find the pattern between them, then you compare it to you. And you see, which are these am I already doing? Because some of them, you're probably already crushing them. Which are these am I not doing? And then you just separate those out too. These ones actually are a legitimate gap that I need to bridge. Like I can't just say, oh, it's okay if I can't draw very well if I'm an illustrator. No, I have to that's something that sometimes you have to work on some of those things, but they're other elements. Then you have to find the ones where it's like, you know what? These make me unique. These are like breaking the rules in a way that might serve different people. And if I compare you to some of these people that you mentioned, one of the things that I love about what you do is that you have a real ethic. I'm not calling any of those other people unethical, but you have a very, it's very grounded in the way that you approach things. It's always, you keep yourself in check really well in terms of like not overseeing, not saying this thing could have saved your life. If you do this, no, you always keep it in reality. And that is so palatable to people like me. And this is what I think you do just to give you all the praise that I can while I'm here. But I think you do really well that I think so many creators, marketers, artists get wrong is that you understand the trust component. You're playing the long game. And that's why you're in the long form media. You know, you are thinking about like not just this launch, but how do I do it so that next launch, I didn't lose half my audience or how do I do it? So in five years, they know that I make good on stuff. I think that you're, you have kind of a masterclass in that trust level. Well, thank you. It means the world's coming to you. And what's funny about that is I do care a lot about that so much so that I actually, I care so much about it that I more often than not think I'm not doing enough there. And so it's one of the most common piece of feedback that I get. They're like, you're so grounded. You're so ethical. And I'm like, that's crazy because I thought I had like, I was just thinking, I actually need to make this more grounded. So like, it's good for me to hear that because, you know, I don't know, I feel like it's useful. I don't know that I'm just like, this is how I do things. And I don't know, it's actually kind of freeing because yeah, I mean, podcasting is a grind. And like lately, I've been like, man, this is a one to two year. If you do everything right, like you, you have to get it all right. You have to get the four things right. You got to have your premise right. You got to have your packaging right. You got to have retention right. And you got to be able to get people to buy stuff. You have to get those things right before it starts to grow. And then it is a very slow and arduous growth process. You know, one of the things that just a comment on that, I think that one of the issues we have with podcasting is that we treat it like it's a goal to attain where really it's more like keeping top of mind with people. It's a thing, it's a forever thing. It's a thing that you're, this is part of being in business is making sure that you have a mechanism that keeps you in the loop with people and that when people want to take a look, they can go deep. That's what the long form aspect of it is. And so I think that there is this temptation to, I also, you know, this is too much of an aside, but I think that we attribute too much to discovery of podcasts. Thinking that podcasting is the way that all these new people are going to find me, where I think it's really much more about when people want to get to know you, they have a great space to do that. And the fact of the matter is that is the game changer for making a deal or a sale. That's how you become, you go from, oh, I like that single to I go to every concert. You have to have, I think, you know, podcasts and the album equivalent. You got to have the deep cuts, you know, let's keep on this because I, there's so much shop that we can talk about the podcast in particular. So I would love to know how you got into podcasting originally from the illustration world, given that I'm pretty sure you got into it when there was no visual component. Very true. Yeah. So I, I started the show in 2014. Now this is one of the probably the most lucky thing that's ever happened to me in my creative journey is that I started the show the same week that serial started. So it was like the moment where people were starting, the general public was starting to be open to podcasting. But I already been a big fan for a while. I kind of got into them early. And the reason I did it, this kind of speaks to what we were talking about, actually, the reason I did it, it didn't come from a place of I need more people to know about me. So that's another thing that just circling back slightly to us talking about how you're so big on trust. I think one of the reasons why that's such a huge differentiator is that most marketing people are about top of funnel. The problem is with that that the problem with focusing all your energy on discovery is you, first of all, it's one of the hardest pieces to do extremely well to have like rapid, crazy growth. What you don't need, but it's very hard to feel like you're crushing it on discovery. But the problem with that is I have friends that have hundreds of thousands. I have at least a couple that I know have millions of followers on TikTok or Instagram. And it didn't solve any of their business problems. And the reason I bring that up is because doing the podcast, I never, I never thought we have ad sales now and it's part of how we justify doing it and it's great. I'm happy to have that. But I never thought I would have a show that was big enough to have ads because I didn't start it as a gross thing. I didn't start it to get more people on board. I started it with the bottom of funnel, which I think is a strategic way of thinking that is not didn't come natural to me initially. I don't think. But I've learned to do it over time. I started with what is the product that I'm trying to sell? And the product I was trying to sell at the time was doing talks. So I fell in love with doing talks. I wanted to do talks at like design illustration conferences. The other thing I learned, which I didn't understand that well at the time, was this idea of that middle of funnel, trust, long form thing. I realized like, okay, all the jobs I want that I need to sustain this career, they're going to the people that are on the conference stages. So how do you get on there? And then I thought podcasts is the perfect medium to sell that. I'm going to create like a hundred. I was going to try to do it for two years. I'm going to create like a hundred episode portfolio of talks. That's what I was thinking. And I'd learned. Yeah. And basically that's what you're doing. You know, I don't know how much public speaking you do, but that is what you do with these solo episodes. And I had already learned from my illustration career that if I wanted to get a job, I had to get someone to go deep with what I did and I had to convince them. This is who I am. And so if I wanted to work in editorial and do magazine illustration, I needed to create a scene. I needed to create a magazine that allows them to see I can do this before you hire me to do it. So that's what I was doing. And the cool thing is the reason I think it worked is because I let it be the middle of funnel. I let it be what it needed to be. I could after a year, I had, I probably had like, I don't know, 500 people listening to it or something, but it did not matter whatsoever because I knew the people that were listening were the people that would give me those conference jobs. Right. And that's all I needed. And eventually the show evolved into something more than just something that got you Yes, conference jobs. So is that was that a gradual evolution? Yeah, it took, I mean, it's been, it just took years and years of getting better at it. And also just the thing is before we, like you've talked about this a million times before we had things like YouTube, there is, there was only organic growth. There was only our only word of mouth. It was just very, very, very slow. And yeah, I tried, I learned a lot of different tactics. Some from you and some from my own experience of how you grow the show. And I built them out of a time. You know, there was a time, like you said, where guessing on other people's shows was a huge converter. And I got really good at making those pitches. But yeah, it just happened slowly. I think now we get something like 15 to 20,000 listens in episode. And sometimes we get even more than that. But I've tried to remember what this is. And it's okay if people come and go as listeners because it's their relationship to what is the product that I'm selling at the end of the day. And yeah. And also people consume in windows anyway. So it has to be okay for the only way. It's the only way. Yeah, it's what they do. I'm curious. So I believe that we both brought our podcasts to YouTube formally around the same time. I think so. I think you might have been a hair before me. It was the end of 2024, I think, right? That you brought your, yeah, I tested stuff on YouTube all the way back in like 2017. I was trying all kinds of little blips, little tests. But I've learned the hard way over and over that you almost never learned anything that way. When you just dip your toes in and try, try a bunch of random things. You can't really ever get enough data to figure out what's working, what's not working. And so at the end of 2024, I thought, I'm going to do 25 to 30 episodes. I'm going to see if I feel like there's anything relevant here for the cost that it takes to do the video and all the extra stuff, even just mentally and all that. And yeah, so we'd start doing that. And about, I'd say probably about 30 episodes in, I do feel like we're here to stay. Oh, there's enough going on here to make it worth it. Oh, it being the channel looks great. I mean, you got as the time of this recording, we're over 17,000 subscribers. Each video is in multi-thousand views. I'm like, hell yeah, like this looks great. And what I loved about it, particularly I listened to the solo episode where you dove in more detail about the framework that we just outlined, which I highly recommend it. We'll link it in the show notes. But I really enjoyed about it was it was, it was not super jump cutty. Like it was, there was space. And I've had a few episodes that I've made that are like that, but I don't think I've put that much space on YouTube. And so it was encouraging to me because in the same vein, I have been reflecting recently, what does make me different? Like what for years I judged myself because I've never been a native creator on short form. It's only recently that I've been like, man, I'm a long form guy. Like why do I keep judging myself for not doing short form when I'm like, weirdly qualified to just like lean into a long form. So I want to, my point here is just, it was cool to see the show doing so well without tons of Mr. Beast jump cuts and you know, all those crazy things. Is there anything that you specifically have done different that you've changed about your show for YouTube? Or is it pretty much just you took what you're doing on audio and put it on YouTube? I'm constantly trying tweaks to figure out because we've had a, we've had a few episodes take off a little bit more than others. So we've had a couple that, one that almost hit 50k and so we've had like I think three episodes that really kind of took off. So I'm always like trying to figure out like, you know, it's hard to say often like what made this one work and other ones work will not as well. But I take it with a grain of salt again because and this is what gets into the discovery piece. Everyone wants that virality. And the thing about that is, first of all, you don't need it. You don't need it to build a successful business. It's very few business owners are the types of unicorns that hit the lottery. Then we spend all of this time interviewing lottery winners may like, how did you do? And they're like, well, I'll tell you how I did it. And they're like those people that are in the gym where it's like, yeah, they don't know how they did it because they weren't in control of it. And so I get really, I try not to put too much time and energy into that because again, I don't need tons and tons and tons of people to know about what I do. I only need the right people to know. That can give me the kind of jobs that I'm looking for, you know, the people that I'm trying to work with. And so I try not to change everything when we have one episode do well. And the other thing about the podcast, you know, like YouTube become in, is it the biggest place where people listen to podcasts now? It is the top. Yeah. I mean, as of 2024, it was and it's even grown more now. I think the interesting thing about that is for me, there is a temptation to think what does well on YouTube? What's a good YouTube channel? But as an artist, I've thought a lot about the medium. The medium determines the rules, right? And it's not that YouTube is just the, I didn't go to YouTube because it's the best place to find new people. I did it because podcasting is working there. Yeah. They start thinking about, and I have a point. I've tell you what I think podcasts are. You start that you think about, okay, well, what is a podcast? I think that a podcast is an audio blog. That's what I think it is. So it's not an audio book. And there's a difference because when I go reach, and this is where you get the empathy of putting yourself in the listener's shoes, I reach for an audio book when I have all of my attention. When I'm ready to go deep, that's when I listen to an audio book. But you need to get really clear about what makes a good podcast. And for an example, one thing I think that makes a good podcast is it's something that you would prefer to listen to alone. That's a weird one. But it's something I've thought a lot about is that mine relate. And it's one of the interesting things about the pair of social kind of relationship that you build with people that listen to your show is this is an intimate thing. And in fact, sometimes if someone comes in while you're listening to a podcast, you're like, oh, well, let me shut this off. There's some weird thing that I'm doing. It's almost embarrassing. Yeah. Yeah. And so you have to think about, okay, what does that mean? And what does that make possible? And then you start creating not bad art, not bad media. But what makes a podcast good? And it's not the same things that make Mr. Beast work. It's not at all. I think that reminds me of something that Jay Akunzo told me early on. Jay was a very early guest of Grow the Show. But the distinction that he made was your show needs to be someone's favorite show. It does not need to be the best show, but it needs to be someone's favorite show. And his example, which made for those who follow sports, his example was the New York Knicks with which those who follow basketball, the Knicks are actually good now. But when he's shared this with me, they were historically bad. Probably a better analog today is the New York Jets are famously always horrible. So like, you know, he says like, clearly, you don't have to be the best football team. You just have to be someone's favorite football team because there are jet fans that to this day are still just as miserable and still show up and go and pay and wear bags on their faces, whatever. So so this is something that I've been reflecting on, particularly recently, as I feel like I don't know if like the competition has turned up or I'm just particularly attuned lately to just like how hard it is to for a podcast to grow. And it's and you don't actually need to be the best. You need to be someone's favorites. I think that is is what the key is. What do you think? I completely agree. And alongside that, another way to think about what a podcast is and what it's good for when I was starting out for the longest time, I was thinking through the lens of good media, which good media is concise. And it took a point and it's punchy. And it's and so I was constantly every week trying to give them something they've never heard before that was going to change their life. That's what I was trying to do. I'm not saying I ever did it, but I was trying to do. And then eventually I realized like, Oh, that is nothing. That's nothing like what makes a podcast good. A podcast is this is something we also touched on was a podcast is this companion. It's a companion media. And it means that you need me to show up again this next week and kind of tell you what I've been telling you, but in a different way because either it didn't click or you forgot it or you're not feeling it. And the reason you read and I thought a lot about what is the emotion that people have when they reach for my show. And that should be different to almost any other show. And I'm very I'm very locked into. I think I know what they're feeling is that they forgot why they should push through. Why do they this is hard? It's not working. Why should I push through? And how can I come at it differently? That's all they're thinking about. And so that's what I'm trying to show up with every single week. So it doesn't need to be something that I've never said before, doesn't need to be anything that blows their minds. It needs to help them tap into their journey where they're at, where they're going. And I think that that's just another example of what makes podcasts differently because when you reach for a book, you usually are looking for like a transformation. You're not necessarily going to read five book, you know, there's some of the biggest books, self-help books over the past 10 years have all had the same message, which is quit thinking about what other people think about you. They're all like, you know, the subtle art of not giving an F, let them theory, courage to be disliked. It's all saying the same thing. The difference is which one appeals to you? Right. And I could tell you, and most people I think if they're aware of those books could tell you, I know exactly which one appeals to me. Totally. That's what you're thinking about. That's what you're thinking about. The thinking of what emotion they're feeling when they reach for my show is that is massive. I've never considered it that way. But when I think about my own listenership behavior, the show, the four to five shows that are on myself, it is absolutely the case that I reach for one of them when I'm feeling a certain way. Fascinating. I've found a lot about that because it's something that I've heard. I'm always like researching creative practice from all different angles. And one thing I've heard actors talk a lot about is this idea of priming. So that's the word that I would use. And if they're going to go into a scene, they need to be in that emotion. I like Ian McCown's thing of acting isn't pretending to feel a feeling. It's feeling a feeling on purpose. And so that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to, they're like, okay, I need to get into a listening show. They're like, I kind of need to work on my podcast. But I don't feel like it. I don't want to do that. And so if I know if I put the show on, I'm going to start priming that emotion. And so and that might not be the thing for you, but it's an example of one. And the same goes for me is they're trying to prime themselves to remember how that feels or what they're trying to prime themselves for a particular emotional experience. Yeah. And they're trying to provoke it. I'm very curious. If you're hearing us right now, if you have an idea for what emotion you feel before you reach for Grow the Show email it to Kevin at GrowTheShow.com. I would love to hear what you have to say and what that is for for you. That's a good idea. I think my definition of a podcast recently has been really it's long form media that's consumed on a regular or that's long form media that's published on a regular cadence. So I think whether it's video or it's audio, whether it's solo or or interview or some other format daily, weekly by weekly. It's just something that's I think the the way that I relate to the blog way that you think about it is more of the cadence and more less so about like here's my update and more so like you're going to on this loose cadence, you're going to get this in this way plus companionship because the funny thing is I mean you've experienced this more than I have because you've been podcasting more that the word has evolved so much and my belief there's a lot of people who argue about what it means and I think that's a total waste of time because it just simply means what everybody agrees in that moment or it means what people think it means that's what it means and for a lot of people it now means a interview on YouTube right which is part of the reason why this is the first interview I've done in about a year because what I found is number one interviews people who are new to podcasting are going to YouTube for interview content true interview content is performing particularly well on YouTube right now and I think my theory not that you asked but I want to know my theory is that I got into solo stuff because it was a contrast to what audio listeners had had been experiencing so people were doing 45 minute audio interviews every week for a long time and I did that for a long time and then what I was finding was that solo audio episodes were performing better across shows and I think a part of that is just podcast listeners have heard so many interviews where it's like so tell me about your background it's just the same interview over and over again and so the solo content was something new and my theory is that on in the YouTube world it's actually the flipped because people have been watching solo YouTube videos for 20 years that's really now everything has caught up studios you know data plans and consumer behavior where people are now putting on long form unpolished interviews and people like my parents and grandparents and my young 15-year-old cousin who never consumed audio podcasts are now going to YouTube for videos and on the tactical data-driven side I currently have access to about 30 to 40 shows YouTube studios yeah so I can see what's working and what's not and it is it has blown me away how much interviews how well they're performing on the back end and grow helping to grow channels and improve a channel's standing on YouTube in terms of average view duration watch time in some cases clip through eight so I say all that as a preamble to ask you have you noticed any difference in on YouTube between your interview content and your solo content yeah I would say that it's really interesting I think that's a really good insight and it's really powerful for podcasters because there is a temptation like we said earlier to try to make a great YouTube channel when you convert your podcast over to YouTube but they are two different mediums and people are going to them for very different reasons and I think that it's kind of giving me an insight because I realize that when I look at my interviews they none of them are going to go viral none of them are going to have rapid discovery or they haven't yet yet in terms of how they perform regularly they tend to do a little bit better than the solo episode that don't take off and like I said this is something I think about there I think trying to get rapid discovery is such a distraction for almost every type of artist and creator and business person I'm trying to maximize that is such a losing game and I and the other reason I like not to focus on it is it's so much out of your control if you are there's an illustrator from my world he's probably probably the most famous respected illustrator, modern illustrator but he's not a household name his name is Christoph Neiman and he's just very respected conceptual illustrator and he did a talk that I think about all the time where he said your job as a professional is to be able to do good stuff every single time that's your job and here's what here's what here's the thing you can control that that's your craft that's what you need to do what you can't do is do great stuff every time great stuff is out of your control but it's more likely to happen if you continue to show up and do good stuff and so when I do the podcast that's what I'm trying to think about is I know how to make a good episode I'm going to keep trying to make good episodes and know every once in a while there's going to be a great one and it's going to take off and do something different but I try to focus on the craft rather than the hack of how do I hack this thing to be great and we could wrap for we probably will I think there's so many things on my list here that we haven't touched on so I definitely think we're going to have to do around two sometimes but if you know folks want to dig into your content sphere where where's the first place they should go I would say the podcast creative pep talk I try to lean into the creativity but it's very much a creative career creative practice show it's not only for artists it's for people that create content but see the creativity side of that as a big part of what they do and what they care about so I think a lot of your listeners will enjoy it I agree I just in listening I mean I've listened here and there but it's particularly preparing for our conversation I'm like oh my god my people are going to just be all over this so thanks excited to send them there and do thank you so much for being here today like I said definitely going to do another one sometime soon yeah thanks for having me let's do it again