178 | The Uncomfortable Secret to 1 Million Downloads Per Month, with David Shands

1 million downloads per month. That is a lot of downloads. How can a number like that even be possible? Could you imagine what your life would be like if your podcast got a million downloads per month? I know my life would change. I'm definitely not there yet. Thinking about it now, it seems impossible, but that's the beauty of it. It's not impossible. It's been done by multiple people. And guess what? You can do it too. Today on Grow the Show, you're going to learn what it actually takes to grow a podcast past a million downloads a month. And you're going to learn it from somebody who didn't even know what a podcast was five years ago. His name is David Chans. And today, his podcast, Social Proof, gets more than a million downloads per month. He's got over 300,000 followers on Instagram and more than 320,000 YouTube subscribers. And his different products and services net him multiple seven figures in revenue every year. Today, he's going to share with you the secret to growing a podcast business that large and spoiler alert. It has nothing to do with growth hacks. But I guarantee that when you hear David talk about how he thinks about serving his audience and putting on a show, you're going to notice something for yourself and your show that'll get it to the next level. So if you're ready to learn how David Chans built his audience into the hundreds of thousands and how you can do the same, then let's get started. This is Grow the Show. The podcast to help you grow your podcast. My name is Kevin Schmidland. I am your podcast growth coach. And my mission is to help you to grow your audience faster and monetize to the max so that you can have a thriving, profitable content business. In this episode, we're going to dive into how David Chans went from Cheesecake Factory Server to mega-podcaster in short order. And he's going to help you rethink your show and eat your audience in a way that'll make it more obvious how you can grow and monetize faster. So if that sounds good, then stick around to this episode of Grow the Show. Now about a decade ago, David Chans was like most new entrepreneurs. He had a lot of fire, a lot of passion. He knew he was destined for more, but for some reason he just couldn't get anything to stick. So he hopped around from job to job, side hustle to side hustle. Until finally, he had an epiphany when he got a job at the place that's famous for having an overwhelming number of options. The Cheesecake Factory. I had this like, this realization that I never stayed a job long. So before I worked there, I worked at Olive Garden. And I was there about 10 months while I was working at Olive Garden. I still had the security job even going into the Cheesecake Factory, but I was there like a few months because I was doing both of them. I worked at Circus City, I worked at Apple Bees, I worked at Foot Action, I worked at like a call center, a couple call centers. Wow. None of those jobs I ever held like longer than 10 months or so. Part of the reason why David was hopping around so much was that he wanted so badly to be a successful entrepreneur. And he wanted it right away. Take some money from my job and I'll put it into something and I'm like, you know what, this is gonna work and then I'm gonna quit. And now I'm this full time entrepreneur, eventually the excitement dies. And then I got to go back and get a job. Like that's happened so often throughout my life. So once I got to the Cheesecake Factory, I had this moment like, wow, I haven't really stayed anywhere for 10 months. He even started looking at my relationship. I couldn't hold a relationship past 10 months. So this has nothing to do with the job or the business or my relationship status. Like this is a me problem. I mean, I can't focus for too long. So once it hit me like a ton of bricks and I said to myself, I'm not even gonna be chasing entrepreneurship for at least a year. I am gonna work at this job. I don't like it. But I have to have to figure out how to stay somewhere. Stay put somewhere because I'm starting to see this cycle. So that's what he did. David decided to go all in and really devote himself to performing well in his role at the Cheesecake Factory. And what happened next? Well, he started to see how that entry-level job was actually an opportunity. I knew I wanted to be a better communicator and what better way to be a better communicator than communicating every single day to my guests that come instead of my table. So my objective was to I want to make a million dollars in sales. Well, if I can't sell my guests a slice of Cheesecake at the end of their meal, it's gonna be impossible for me to make a million dollars in sales. David got really good at sales and he went on to work there without a side hustle for two and a half years. And only then did he launch his now famous t-shirt brand sleep is for suckers. But unlike David's previous side hustles this time, he made sure that he didn't bail on his day job until he was truly ready. But unlike with David's previous side hustles, this time he made sure that he didn't bail on his day job until he was truly ready. Told myself, if I get to this certain number consistently for three or four months, I'll quit. So I hit the number and I quit. And that was it. You know, it wasn't off of emotion. It was very logically. I said, I was gonna hit this goal. As soon as I hit this goal, I left. Yeah, not admitted or though. The level of focus that David was able to achieve would wind up being the difference between constantly jumping from one thing to the next and actually building something that would turn into an empire. Now, David finally has that empire. He's got a clothing brand, a coaching business, real estate, you name it. David has finally become the entrepreneur he was always dying to be. The only reason I could stick in that business of focus and I started chasing real estate and chasing this and chasing that and chasing money over years because I told myself, I'm gonna stay at this cheesecake factory and stick here. But if I didn't learn that lesson, I wouldn't have been able to transfer that into focusing on this one business and this one business alone. And so for any entrepreneur early on, this is the nut you need to crack. You need to pick something and go all in on it. Devote yourself to it and stick with it for the long run even when the going gets tough and shiny objects pop up that seem like they would be easier and that's gonna be hard because even if you do convince yourself to stay focused, everybody else in your life is gonna be telling you to do the opposite. It will start saying, you need to start teaching it. Hey, you sell a t-shirt but bed sheets. You need to make bed sheet. Tell you, you could take over the bed sheet industry before this moment, I would be like, yeah, bed sheet, let's go and then I'm off my bed. Yeah, but yeah, it was really the ability to focus and I don't think a lot of people have the ability because they don't focus on it. They don't focus on your ability to focus. Well, yeah, and like what brings us into entrepreneurship tends to be that shiny object, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is a good thing but it sounds like what you're saying is in order for us to be successful as entrepreneurs, we actually have to kind of undo the thing that got us into entrepreneurship in the first place, right? Now, this principle of focus doesn't just apply to actual businesses that sells products or services. It applies to your podcast too. Some people when they start a podcast, their focus is on making up about your money. So they're gonna go every which way they can go to try to make some money and they never really make any because they haven't figured out, okay, this is the trick that I'm gonna pull over and over again. Let me just have an amazing show that people love and the advertisers are coming. I don't know what your trick is, but that's commendable. I would much rather have one business make it a million dollars than three businesses making 333,000. Right. Same amount of money, but somebody would say, you need multiple, no, the more you can lock it on something you build a foundation and the stronger the foundation is hard for it to both. David's t-shirt brand became the foundation that he would build an empire on top of and a huge part of that empire is his podcast, which is called social proof. As I've said before, that show gets a million downloads a month and the YouTube channel has over 300,000 subscribers. But the funny thing is that when David started doing the podcast back in 2018, he was not intending to build something that would have a massive audience. So I longed to show, but I didn't know it was like a podcast necessarily because my objective was, I was doing an event in 2019. So 2018, I come up with this really good idea. I say, well, we doing this entrepreneurship conference. I'm going, I have all these speakers that are coming to speak. I'm going to interview the speakers and put it on YouTube and hopefully people see it on YouTube and say, hey, I want to meet the person that you interview and they'll buy a ticket. So those earlier videos, you'll see me saying, hey, guys, make sure you meet us at the social proof conference, August 4th or whatever the day was. And I just kept doing it and I liked it. But by the time the event came, I stopped because that was the strategy to grow that, not to be a podcast. Right. And that was over. So the next year, I'm doing the event again and I run that same playback. But at one, I really start enjoying these conversations too, I realized the networking is incredible. I would do an interview with somebody that's like successful and that person's successful friend would me. I would say, hey, can I be on the show too? I'm like, yeah, sure, no problem. And that the networking was insane. So I'm like, man, I really love this. My audience loves it. I'm able to network with people that otherwise wouldn't get close to. And I think I'm going to keep doing this thing. And then the moment I started getting consistent, whereas not just based off the event, the show just started to work really, really well. Fascinating. What would you attribute to it working so well? Like why did the show start to take off? Man, if I'm being completely honest, what, I think I'm good at it. I think I'm good at being curious and really interested in people. So that works in my favor. But too, in my community, there weren't many podcasters or there weren't many platforms where you would introduce a successful entrepreneur and have an hour long conversation. In 2018, right? Now it's all over. It's like everybody that's on the show, they're on a bunch of other shows, but it wasn't like that before. There's some like super successful entrepreneurs. I was like their first interview, because podcasting wasn't necessarily a thing like it is now in 2018. So I think timing, because where else would you get to hear these conversations? Yeah, especially in our community, like in the African-American community, it was interviews of celebrities or athletes, not necessarily entrepreneurs, unless it's like high-level entrepreneurs. But the ones that's right in your city making $23 million, it didn't exist like that. So it was timing. Now I know what you're thinking. Well, isn't he lucky? David's lucky that he started doing something that nobody else was doing at that time. Ah, but it is not about luck. You can do the exact same thing today. You have to find out what's not in the market. Because if you find that, you do a show on that. That thing will start to work because you can't find it anywhere. And once it works, you'll see a bunch of copycats. There's not many people teaching podcasters how to podcast. Right. You're doing an amazing job. I'm actually building a show around interviewing podcasters specifically that are successful. Why? Because there's not many doing it. Yeah. And eventually your show is going to continue to grow. And once people realize that it's out there because there's a lot of people that don't even know that there's a show that can teach you how to podcast. They just don't know. Yeah, you got to find a gap. We found a gap. So creating something that doesn't really exist yet, finding the gap is one thing that David recommends to any podcaster looking to establish themselves. But that alone did not propel David into the podcasting stratosphere. There's actually another thing that became an unfair podcasting advantage for David. And we've already talked about it. Focus. In my mind, there's only one person I listen to my show. It's a guy named Rico. He has a job and a dream. And he wants to bridge the gap and become a full-time entrepreneur. He's a little confused on which avenue he's going to go in. He starts his stops. He starts his stops and runs his entrepreneurial treadmill. Try to post on social media. It doesn't really get much hits. He's in the personal development. But now it's starting to create little wedges between him and his friends because his friends still want to go out and party and drink all the time. And for some reason, Rico is like, I don't want to do that anymore. I don't know why I don't have anything better to do, but I don't want to do that. So for every episode, I'm having the conversation with whoever's in front of me for Rico. We're going to get him out of that situation. We're going to inspire him. We're going to motivate him. We're going to give him an opportunity to make some money somehow. Whatever that guest is doing, I'm going to, I'm asking questions as if Rico's in a crowd and Rico asked me before the interview, hey, how does that person make money? How could I do it too? So I'm interviewing in that particular style. So it doesn't matter which episode you come in on. You're going to get the same thing. Same conversation, just a different person. Was it like a single exercise that you put this persona together? Like, did you sit down and be like, okay, I need to figure out who my listener is? Because that is so detailed, which is just so rich, which the beauty, I'm like, freaking out, because that's crucial to understand your audience at that level. And when you have that level of detail, it's obvious what to do. We don't have to ask ourselves how to grow, how to monetize, you know it. So how did you get to that level of understanding, that level of depth with your audience? I'm going to add to Bernouar for a long time. I coach a lot of entrepreneurs and I get the same day and they're just confused. They asked a question this week. And there was something else in six months, you know what I mean? So it's like, you keep changing in this hard, it's hard for people to follow you because there's always a different mission. Like there's always a different message. There's always a different fight. I got one fight. How do I get someone average person to make a bunch of money? Oh, one fight that I'm fighting. So of course you'll follow me. It doesn't change. So I just realized that I want to have the same show that's going to continue to feed people long-term. And I can't do it about one week. I'm talking to someone about how to make their first 100,000. And then the next week I'm talking to somebody how to go from 10 to 100 million. I interviewed Grant Cardone and it wasn't about how did you go from 100 million to a billion. My audience doesn't care. It's like, what is the psyche it takes to go be successful period? Like tell me how you got into entrepreneurship to begin with. Tell me the story. Like I want to know the how to's. I don't care who I'm interviewing. Same conversation because I want the one person to continue to follow me. I'm not reaching for different audiences. Even with an audience of over 300K, David has resisted the urge to be more broad. And here's the thing. That urge is always going to be there. But you can grow beyond your wildest dreams if you're just able to identify your specific audience avatar and ruthlessly focus on serving them. And remember, when you're figuring out who your audience is, don't focus on demographic information like age or generation or location. I was actually talking to a young lady. She said, well, my audience are women between 22 and 40. And I'm like a 22 year old woman has nothing in common with a 40 year old woman. So on this particular episode, you're either going to talk to the 22 year old or the 40 year old. And if you have that type of range, this week you're going to talk to the 22 year old and a 40 year old can't relate. They're like, I mean, this isn't for me. I don't think like that. I don't do that, right? And if you're talking to a 40 year old, the next episode, the 22 year old is like, oh, this is the kind of Adam Ali. Bam. So neither episode three, nobody's going to follow you because you broke in brand trust. They can't trust that this episode is going to be for them. 100%. So it's super important. It's not an age range. It's I've one person and I know what that person is going through. I know what that person is. I know what type of food that person likes. I know that the person's kind of vegan sometime, partially. It's just a struggle. So if I say something like I crack some sort of joke about being part time vegan, Rico's going to laugh. He's going to relate and say, yeah, me too. I keep trying and I keep failing. It makes sense. And the secret to actually understanding your specific audience so well that you can crack a joke like that and the laugh is the obvious yet annoying thing that nobody wants to do. You have to actually interact and engage with your audience all the time. You need to start building a community around the people that you're trying to service, especially if you're a podcaster. If you're a real estate, they have real estate meetups. You need to be there talking to people. One, learning so you can bring stuff back to your show with two, maybe even educating those people and giving them some games so they see, yeah, this person is a part of community. It is not always about recording and views and lights and gotta be interested in people, man. So that's one way I engage my audience on a regular basis. I create a lot of content on social media around the same topics of entrepreneurship and content creation. I have a studio here and I'll just like doing meetups. My community, we have a morning meetup group and they can come to all of our recordings, live recordings on Wednesdays and they just hear, like I just do a volume. It's not no charge, you're not in a community. Come on, so we have like a full room of people that come and watch our interviews all the time and we just finish like a four city tour of going to different cities to talk to people in person. I'm really, really big on community and I have to be around people, not as a mechanism to keep them engaged, but it's just something that I need. I need the energy of the people that are around me. Now, if you're a little bit earlier in your journey and you're still searching for that avatar to serve, the best thing you can do right now is find a way to go get in front of people. Go find the people that you're excited to serve. How can I get in front of the audience? Sounds so simplistic. Very few people actually sit down and think of a way to get in front of their audience. They just do it. You know what I mean? They're just active, like this is gonna be good and I know someone's gonna catch on and I make post on Instagram, but you're not thinking, so priceless. We're doing this podcast on it. And I'm sitting there thinking, how the heck am I gonna fill up this place with over a thousand podcasters? And for the first couple of months, I'm just pushing it, think it A, it's just, I'm just gonna tell people about it and they're going to come. Well, it's such a niche market, like you have to like want to be a podcaster, you gotta kinda wanna get into the space, right? So over the last few weeks, I just started thinking, are there any shows that are speaking to people who already have a podcast or wanna start a podcast? Oh, grow the show, no problem. Then Hala puts me in touch with pod news, which is a podcast, like a magazine for podcasters. Unless you're a podcaster, you're not even gonna subscribe. Right. I should have been getting in front of these people way earlier. Now, because I'm thinking about it, I'm finding all these different outlets of people who have the audience. So, if I'm doing a show on, like to teach podcasters on a podcast, I'm running relationships with all of those people because they have the audience, but the only reason I didn't do it as soon as because I was just acting, I was just running and I didn't think, how can I get in front of these people? Where are they? Who has my people? I hear two questions ask yourself, success is about asking yourself the right questions, right? And so it's instead of saying, how can I get butts and seats at my events, you then ask yourself, how do I get in front of podcasters? Which is, it seems obvious, but that's a different question that has better answers that actually get the job done, right? We're sure. And you touched another one there, which I want to emphasize, which is anybody that you want to reach is already following somebody else, right? Somebody has already assembled your dream audience. All you gotta do is collaborate with them and do something cool. And they'll just have them tell you about it, tell their audience about what you're doing, right? Like, half the lose. But again, wait, he's just said and done. You never saw it for sure, but I think it's easier done than said sometimes. Did you say it and it sounds super difficult? Versus, here's the thing, I've been subscribed to pod news for years. It's like for me to say, oh, you know what, I'm gonna reach out and advertise with them. It was easier to do it than it was to like, say it and convince myself that I'm supposed to do it. It was easy to just like, hit up the emails and say, I want a sponsor to hit me back and say, okay, cool, we got you. Oh, wow, that was super easy. I did. Five minutes ago that he is. Five months of thinking for five minutes of action and pow. It's crazy, man. Coming up, David's gonna talk about the number one reason that his podcast has been so mega successful. And he's gonna share how you can use it to take your show to the next level. Stay tuned. Welcome back to Grow the Show with David Shands. Now, earlier in the episode, David shared that one of the big reasons his podcast is crushing it is because he's naturally talented at interviewing. It's a strength of his. And he knows that because he hears it all the time from strangers. I can't get people like to stop me in a airport. I have not been to the airport in like the last two years and somebody didn't stop me like, hey, I love your show. So that tells me I have something good, right? And I get multiple people who's after their interview was done. They say, that was the best interview I've ever had. I get it a lot. Like, at first of all, I like it and you try to be nice. But I get that a lot now. So I know I have something good, but if you're not getting that response, you need to find out why not. You need to talk to your friends in your circle and say, hey, have you listened to my show? Yes. Well, how many of them? All this in the one. What you did like that one? Tell me how I can improve. But don't be my friend right now. I want you to be a hater. Okay. I want you to act like you don't like any, you ever had like a, someone you dated for a while, you sing their praises while you with them. But when they break up, you're like, yo, you know what? Another thing. I ain't got it. I ain't got it. Wait. No, you're a friend. I want that. Okay. Three, we like an ex. Okay. Tell all the bad stuff about my show because I need to improve because you could just not have a good show. Like, you're doing a lot, but it's just not good. And there's some things that you can't see about yourself. So that's why companies pay millions of dollars for servings. Because they want to know what don't you like? What do you like? I mean, keep doing the things that you do like. You need to change up the things that you don't. So do I have a better package or a presentation so I can start creating fans. This is a crucial point that I want to re-emphasize. You need to find a way to get real, constructive criticism about your show, especially when it comes to your interviewing skills and your performance as a podcaster. Everybody thinks that they're a good interviewer and a good storyteller and most people aren't. And there are a lot of podcasters who are really average at interviewing and at speaking. They sound boring. They don't sound compelling. And that's not a show that tons of listeners are going to listen to. But you can become better. It's not just about natural talent. Those are all skills that you can hone. Can you talk a little bit more about how to perform as a podcaster in a way that's really, really great? Because you said you get a lot of great feedback from your interviewers. And we're on camera now more and more as podcasters. That's just going to continue. So we can listen to our audience's feedback all day on the nitty gritty of what they like. But what it comes down to is you have to be good at podcasting. So how can you get better at it? Create some friction in the conversation. I'm intentionally looking for points that I don't agree with my guests. Really? Intentionally, yeah, for sure. So I'm trying to find something that I don't 100% agree. Also, I could say, you know, I'm not feeling that. That doesn't make sense because it forces them to come back with more energy and there's friction error. So if you're talking to your friend, like to think about your best friend, y'all probably argue more than you guys agree. That's what best friends do. Like, yeah, Brian, Kobe, like it's just, there's friction error all day. Yeah, you know, I just said, you know, you're right. Wow, that was an amazing answer. No, there has to be some sort of friction. Also in the middle of the conversation, I'm going to cut them off. And there are some people in my comments that said, stop cutting the guests off. Well, there has to be friction. If I'm talking, say you're my friend and we're having a conversation, it's not like I ask you a question and do you answer it? And I sit there while you answer the question. And when you're done answering the question, I ask you another one. And then I'll let you answer it. We don't talk to our friends that way. It's like my friends that, hey, so I went out, I went out on a towel without with Tammy. Tammy, oh, Tammy, oh, you know, Tammy, with this, oh, okay, go ahead. They'll start telling the story. So I get out of the car and I open the door, she'll say, thank you, she'll say, thank you. Nah, I, so what would you do, right? So it's a, it's friction. It's not like question to answer, question to answer, question to answer. So we got to create it, we got to create a conversation. Got it. But also you have to listen to. So some of you will have prepared questions, which you have to be really good to prepare questions and have a good interview. You also got to be really good to not prepare questions, have a good interview. And this is what I mean. If the questions are prepared in advance, like you know what you want to ask the person, it takes away the element of surprise. You got to be able to pivot around those questions to make it seem like you didn't prepare the questions earlier, right? So most of my questions are coming off the answer of the question I just asked. I can't prepare for that, right? Which I have to be genuinely interested. My goal isn't to show the audience that I understand all this stuff that the guests are talking about. There's certain things I don't understand. It might use a word and I'm like, I don't know what that word means. So you've got to explain that. And I'm okay with that. I'm comfortable because I genuinely didn't know. And my audience didn't either. I actually broke up with it. Not it wasn't that, but I did it to somebody. She was an attorney and she was just super smart. And she used words all the time. And I'm like, within me. And she will get so upset, where I'll tell you. You're joking. I'm like, kind of dropped out. You didn't mean I don't. Yeah, never heard of it. That's awesome. But you make a great point. Which is like, if you don't know the word that your guests just used, there's probably a good chance that a lot of your listeners don't either, right? So it's funny. You're the second guest in two weeks to tell me to disagree more. And that is, I'll work on it. I'm like, so that is so against the way I've ever done things. And it's, I get it. I'm like, I'm totally with it. But I'm like, ooh, that's going to tell me. My hairs are standing up. I'm like, oh, so yeah. I think that's my point. And it really, it forces the guests to like come up and say some stuff they wouldn't normally say because most of you are going to leave it to, how do you monetize? I don't know. Let's say affiliates, right? But I'm like, well, how do you collect all your money? What if the people don't give you your money? How do you track all that? I know for sure you're losing some money because you can't track all of the affiliates. You got a bunch of them. Especially if there's no system in place or how do you track it? Then they say, well, this is how I track it. But well, what about this though? This, this, I know this system is broken. So I'm not assuming that my guess is perfect. And they actually got approved to my audience that they really know what they're talking about. So I'm curious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And no, it's true. And it's what, it's what we want, right? I'm going to have to decide if that's the one thing that I want to disagree on. It's whether or not to disagree. Like, I don't think we have to disagree. Maybe that's the thing. I don't know. There you go. I can check the box. For sure. Awesome. You ever listen to Larry King interviews? For sure, yeah. The spiciest stuff in the world. Yeah. Oh, and it's true. And like, you know, this day and age, man, it's true. It's like, that's what the people pay attention to, which is conflicts, which nothing is interesting without. That's why I kind of started getting that part from. I just really got engulfed in Larry King and he was so raw and uncut in. Yeah. You could tell, like, you're not about the, he's not pandering. He don't care who you are. You could be the president of a country. Yeah. Like a politician. He's on you. So yeah. Finding friction in the conversation is just one of the many tools that you can use to improve as an interviewer. But that tactical loan is not going to be enough to level you up as the talent of your podcast. You're going to need more skills. And how can you pick up on those skills? You have to be in the community. Like, you've got to get around other podcasts or this. There's no other way around it. I've got so much game and information about being around other podcasts. A lot of my friends have shows. And I see other personal social media. I see the stuff that they're doing. They see the stuff that I'm doing. And it pushes each other. And we can have conversation about downloads and affiliates and monetization and CBMs. And we can have all these conversations. You have to get into community with it. So a lot of the people that are like the tech giants, they were friends in the 80s. They were like, there was news like this community of people that are like really in the tech. And then it becomes all city of Silicon Valley. These are people who built it because it was a community of people. So you have to stay in the community. You have to find someone you can listen to. I think you can have as a great person to continue to listen to. Somebody is maybe a little further along than you. They can pull you along, right? Because they just see things from a different perspective. We actually have Red Circle. That's my podcast is a recent platform. And I love to make it make me a lot of money. They bring a lot of ad deals to me because there's certain things about the corporate space that they see. They know what advertisers want because they're doing business all the time. I think I know what they want. I think they want an audience. I think they want to like an ad read, right? But they have different insights. So I'm pulling on them to find out what is it that makes a show attractive to somebody to give them $100,000 deal, $50,000 deal, right? But also you have to focus on being good at it. Outside of, if you have a sports show, you really need to be talking to sports beyond the microphone, beyond the camera. If we go out to lunch and we have a friendly waitress, you will see me interview her. Our friends get sick of it. I'm telling the all the time, oh, I feel like I'm being interviewed because I'm just curious. Like I want to know what's going on. So you've got to practice your craft 24-7. Incredible. Absolutely. Like I'm sure when you watch TV, you see podcasting. Oh, yeah. Right. Right. Like everything, everything's a podcast. So I say, if I go for all the time, everything's a podcast. We can't listen on road trips because I'm always breaking them down. She's like, well, you stop and try and listen. So it's 100%. You got to be obsessed. You got to be obsessed. You got to make your life about it. David, thank you so so much for coming on the show. Thank you for the time. This has been awesome. I really appreciate you. Thank you for what you're doing for the podcast community, man. I love the podcast community. So thank you for being like a front-runner of teaching people how to grow it. So you are really breaking the chains off of a lot of people's voices and they're going to be really, really successful outside of money, but powerful. And their voice is going to be recognized because you've been teaching all this time. So thank you. This episode of Grow the Show was written by me and post-produced by podcast boutique. For Grow the Show, my name is Kevin Schmidland. I'll see you next time.