169 | Mastering the Podcast Interview with Danny Miranda

Have you ever felt like you're just not reaching your full potential as a podcast interviewer? You do the prep, you set the questions, but somehow it just doesn't click with your guest. And you hear other podcasters asking great questions and drawing out these amazing insightful responses from their guests and you wonder, how do they do it? It's frustrating, right? You're putting in the work, but you still feel miles away from where you could be as an interviewer, where you're conducting interviews that truly resonate. Well, that's what you're going to learn how to do today. This is Grow the Show, the podcast that grows your podcast. My name is Kevin Sridland. I am your podcast growth coach. And today on the show, we are exploring the art of the interview. How do you ask the right questions that get your guests talking and keep your audience hooked? Well, to help answer those questions, we're joined today by Danny Miranda, who's the host of the Danny Miranda podcast. Over the past three years, Danny's show has exploded in popularity first off because he has managed to interview top names in the content creator space to interview top names like Gary Vee, Alex Hermosi, Layla Hermosi, and many more content creators whose name you would recognize. But another reason why Danny's show has been so successful is because he is an amazing interviewer. He's known for asking deep questions, listening intently to his guests, and getting them to share things that they've never shared publicly before. By the end of this episode, you're going to learn three big things. Number one, you're going to learn how peak performance as an interview is all about the right amount of preparation and how it actually might not be as much preparation as you think. Number two, you're going to learn how Danny has gone about lending big name guests way earlier than most podcasters do. And number three, Danny's going to share how he listens for hidden gems in his guest responses and how you can too. Finally, Danny's going to share a special tactic that he uses to get guests to open up in a unique way, something that could change how you approach your interviews. All that and more is coming up here right now in this episode of Grow the Show. Alright, so as I mentioned in the intro over the past few years, Danny Miranda has built one of the most popular personal development podcasts around totally from scratch. No audience, no background from nothing. And what's crazy impressive about Danny's podcast journey is just how good he is just how quickly he was able to land huge guests that are usually pretty hard to pin down. So to kick off our conversation, I wanted to know how on earth did Danny land Gary Vaynerchuk as his 39th guest? So I put out on Twitter a list of my dream guests. This was on December 4, 2020. After I put out a list of dream guests, I then remembered that I tweeted or had a blog post about Gary Vaynerchuk when I was 13 years old. So I go on the way back machine and I check out my old domain name, my own old blog, CommanderTime.com. And I put it into 2009, find the blog post, tweet the blog post, and then tag Gary in that when I tag Gary, that led to him following me, then I tweeted that he followed me, then after that, just comments on comments, nonstop of people saying, you got to go on this guy's podcast, and then eventually he agreed to come on. And it was just like one of those days where I could not sleep that night. December 4 to December 5, 2020. I was just high on life. And it was just one of those magical moments of like, wow. This morning, Gary Vaynerchuk was not coming on my podcast. And then when I was going to go to bed, he was. And I was like, this is the craziest thing of all time. So episode 39 won't forever hold the special place in my heart. Yeah, that's awesome. So the other day I was listening to you on another podcast, and you kind of talked about, you went through the first really three years of the show and kind of detailed like how the show grew. And you said something that I hear all the time from other podcasters, which I think you said something along the lines of, I put out a hundred episodes, and then I was like, where's my audience? Like, where is it? Why isn't it there? So can you talk about that moment, what you were expecting, and then what you later learned from that moment? Yeah, it was interesting because I was enjoying it for the sake of doing it. But I also like in the back of my head was like, could I be a professional at doing this after doing it a hundred times? Like, I know most people don't do a hundred podcasts episodes by the numbers. So if I do, will that inherently mean that people will start listening? And I was kind of playing with this idea in my head, and I was kind of upset, you know, and I kind of realized like, oh, wow, like the show's not good enough at this point. And what am I going to do about it? And but in one sense, it was good enough. That was the hard part for me to sift through because I was getting job offers as a result of doing the show. But it wasn't big enough where I felt like I could sustain myself. It wasn't big enough where I was like excited by what was coming next. So there was some disconnect. And in that moment, I realized like, you need an X factor. You need a reason why people are going to come back to the show. You need a reason why people are going to enjoy it. And I think like for me, I was like, oh, wow, I need to spend some time thinking about like, what I'm actually doing here at the deepest level. That's that segue is perfectly into one of the questions I'm most excited to ask you about. So I'll tell you a brief story. So I worked one-on-one with 400-ish podcasters over the past three years. And one of the things I tell everybody is that we have to have a mission behind the show. There's got to be a reason it can't just be like, I like having conversations or something like that. And I often point out to the podcaster that I'm working with, they'll say, well, how did Lewis House do it? Like, how can he talk about greatness and how did Pat Flynn do it? And with each creator, you can usually point back to a point in time where they focused on something like weirdly specific. Like Pat Flynn was, he had a course about architecture. Lewis House for five years was the Grow Your LinkedIn Guy. Like a lot of these folks, Hermosy was Jim's. Like you name it. A lot of these people had like something really specific before they spoke a little bit more broadly. And so I was speaking recently to somebody and they said, what about Danny Miranda? And I was like, it was the first time I was ever stumped. I was like, honestly, he crushes it because his interviews are so good. But it's like kind of the exception that like disproves my role. So I was like, I can't wait to ask Danny, like, what is that mission? And so for me, I feel validated where you had that moment where you're like, I really need to understand what it is that I'm doing here. And so what is it? What is the mission behind the show? It's the spread light. And it's to understand the darkness in someone's story and then like put light to it. And also like highlight the best out of someone. And I do that through research, but it's like the presence, the ability to just sit with someone and understand the nuances and how they're speaking and why they're saying certain things and being willing to ask about it. I don't know if it's, if it's as clear. I mean, at one point I was thinking like, am I the nard war for entrepreneurs? Meaning like, am I the one doing the most research for entrepreneurs? And that's kind of true, but it's like not actually true. It's not actually what I'm trying to do the most because if that was the case, it would just be a 10 minute interview of me asking them the deepest thing from their past and holding on the mic. So it's not actually that the research is a way for me to get presence and really sit in. I'm giving someone a meditation, a 60 minute meditation or more of themselves and asking questions based on that. That's the best way I could describe it. And that's why I think it's been successful. And that's why I think I've gotten incredible guests because I really give the experience like it's a meditation to understand someone else better. Yeah, so you said something now that's really interesting. So you said you do all that research so that you can be present. So how is it that doing all that research enables you to be more present? So the guest needs to trust me and they need to trust that I'm on their side and I need to show them that I like them that I care about them and that we're on the same team. And the research allows me to show that very quickly. If I'm asking you a situation that happened to you when you were 13 that you forgot about that you haven't thought about in a long time, well, that's going to lead you to be like, oh, I like this guy or oh, this guy took the time out of his day because he cares about me. So I'm going to be more open with him because I know he prepared and made something of this moment. So that's kind of how I think about it. It's not like you do all that research and then all of a sudden it's amazing interview. It's only amazing when that person can learn something about themselves. It's only amazing when you have a follow-up question about that research. It's only amazing when someone feels like they are actually understood and sat with in that moment. So yeah, I think that's why the research leads to the presence. Yeah, how did you discover that this fact? How did you discover that research does that for you? Because I played around with what would it look like if I did full research? Like take it to the extreme, like be the most research person and be so research that you have every single bit of information about someone's life. Like to me, that's not exciting. Why isn't that exciting? It's not exciting because I don't actually care about the research that much. I care about being with someone and them dropping their preconceived notions of that moment to actually be and say what is on their mind and heart right now. Which is easier said than done. And it's my job to get them to that place. Yeah. So that's why I realized that. I've heard you talk about how you kind of tested out the different levels of research. Can you share just a couple of examples of the two extremes and what they were like? So episode eight with Ed Ladmore. I did no research. This was like the biggest guess I had on at the time. Obviously, it's been eight episodes and you had over 100,000 followers on Twitter. So I was just like, that's crazy. That's an interesting guy. I'm sure it could be interesting no matter what. And then at the end of it, I felt something was off. I felt like, oh, wow, that could have been better had I been more prepared. Because I did very, very little preparation if any. Then episode 61 with Ali Abdal, that was the most prepared I'd ever been. Because that was my first time interviewing someone with over a million subscribers on YouTube. And or someone that I was watching consistently. And so I really looked up to Ali. And I was really like, I just want to do as much research as possible. Both of those situations, I didn't feel like we're the best. In Ed's case, I did too little and Ali's I did way too much. And it wasn't, when I look back on it, it wasn't that I'd done too much for Ali. It was that I wasn't present enough to trust myself in that moment, to just be. And forget the research if I needed to. A lot of times we create the scripts for ourselves. And we don't think we're good enough to just be in the moment and flow with whatever happens. It takes trust to do that. It takes skill to do that. And that is something I would have to learn and develop. And it wasn't until hundreds of episodes later that I really feel like, wow, I can just be in this moment after doing all this research and not have to say all these questions, or I can. And it doesn't matter. Yeah, that's interesting because I can get how having done no research would make you feel like you can't trust yourself because you don't know anything, right? You don't know anything like that sounds terrifying. But could you say a little bit more about why, like, what is it about being over-prepared that makes it lower trust in yourself? If you take all your research, you're basically like, I don't trust myself enough to create in this moment. I trust myself to only listen to what I previously thought was interesting prior to starting. And it could be like someone who's so rigid in their ways. I'm trying to think of a sports analogy. It's like, you practice a two handed backhand in tennis, over and over and over again. But the situation actually calls for you to slice it with one handed. And you don't trust yourself in the moment to do that because you're like, I didn't practice that. And so for me, that's kind of what it was like. It was like doing that two hand backhand over and over and over again. And then it was just like, dude, you can relax. You can just be like, you're enough. And it took me a long time to realize that. When you're preparing for an interview now today, how do you know when you've reached the sweet spot? I have a lot more trust in myself. And so I know that I can get away, quote unquote, with doing a lot less because I believe in myself just by being who I am. I believe in myself to show up. I mean, Kevin, in the last two weeks, I've probably made five to seven people cry just by asking them questions in person in my day to day life. And I haven't been intending for them to cry. I've just brought up situations from their past that have really forced them to sit with themselves. And so if I know that to be true about what I'm capable of doing with no research on this person, it could be a stranger, it could be just a friend. If I know that's true, then what am I doing trying to over prepare? What am I doing trying? Let me just be present to the creation because I have something to get someone to feel emotions that they've never felt before. Or it's been a while that they've repressed. So let me just lean into that as opposed to lean into this thing that happened in this person shot that I've stopped listening to podcasts of my guests. Because I feel like I've so much trusted myself. And this is like a new thing where I'm like, I'm trusting myself so much. I don't want to hear someone else's voice before I talk to this person. And I do my research with text and I do my research with their video and their audio. But I don't actually listen to someone else interview them. It's a very new change for me in the past like two months or a month. Yeah, that's awesome. So, okay, let's talk about what happens when it's actually interview day. Let's go through the before, the during and the after. So interview day beforehand, let's say an hour before, what are you doing? How are you getting in the right headspace? So usually it is evolved. Some meditations evolved, whether that's just a walking meditation or just sitting down with my breath for 20 minutes. Got a timer here for these on the video version. It's right here. And just sitting there, just being. And the more you can trust yourself to just be in the moment, the more you can trust the guests when they say something. Can you just be with whatever they say and not try to change it and not try to judge it. Just be with it and meditating helps me listen to myself so that I can more clearly hear another person. Another thing that I like to do is a vocal warm up. There's like a one minute vocal warm up from Julian treasure on how to speak effectively that I typically do before interviews. And it is such a helpful practice. It sounds so silly, but it's like saying, la, la, la, la, ba, ba, and then you do like all. It's a minute and I sometimes do that one to three times. And it's seemed to be helpful. Another thing is like I put my pen sometimes between my lips for those watching on video. You could see this and start talking. And then you could, if you do that for a minute, you will enunciate more clearly because there's less friction between your tongue. So those are a couple of things I like to do an hour before. But really just like being in the right headspace, like avoiding big meals, avoiding toxic media or things that don't make you feel good. And just really trying to put yourself in the most positive frame of mind to hear another person the most clearly. Yeah, awesome. So okay, it's interview time. Before you hit record, what are you doing with the guest if anything? So I typically go through a list of questions and I just want to make sure that I'm in a comfortable state of mind. And I'm whatever you feel is the guest is going to at least subconsciously feel as well. So I just want to be comfortable at the moment, comfortable with whatever happens. And I say to them, usually I say, what would make this a win for you is the most important question. What would make this a win for you? Or when you look back on the six months from now, what would make you so excited that you did this? If I asked one of those two questions, like that's more than most people do up to that point. Another is just getting a feeling of their head space going into this. Like what happened previously in their day? I want to come at it from the appropriate place because they could say like my biggest client fired me. And that's way different than I just closed my biggest client. And that can help frame my own energy. I can often feel that from talking to someone, but it's helpful if they say that as well. And then I ask if there are any particular stories that they're excited to tell or that things that have been on their mind recently. So I can frame the conversation around those if needed. And I also say it's no worries if not because we've got a lot to prepare. So yeah, those are a few things. I have a whole checklist as well. But that we can grab water at any time that they can go to the bathroom that I'm not trying to get them that we can remove anything if they want. There's a bunch of things. But the biggest thing is that they understand that I care about them that I am showing love to them and that I really do want the best for them. And that I'm not trying to get them in any way. Yeah, fantastic. So I know you interview some of the most just incredible people. And I'm sure those people have crazy schedules. So like one of the things I'm just curious about is do you ever like because I imagine you time block a significant amount of time so you can really go deep. How much time do you schedule for your interviews? Usually 90 minutes, but maybe two hours. Got it. And so like, have you ever run into any issues where they're like it's going to be a hard stop or anything like that? Or are your guests kind of just cool with it? Ebbing and flowing. Yeah, it seems like everyone's cool with it. Ebbing and flowing. I mean, I think what is unique about my show is that I give the guests a unique experience. And everyone loves an experience that is around them that they're interested in that is looking at their own life and helping them gain new understandings of themselves. Who is going to say no to that? Like very few people are not interested in that in some way. And I give that, I try to give that the best of my abilities to the guests that I have on. So. Yeah, awesome. It reminds me of when I used to do my old show Philly Who. Very, very similar type of vibe where it was like, look, we're dig and deep. You know, we're going into your life story. And one of my favorite parts was how at the end sometimes some of the most impressive people who I was like, I can't believe this person is spending two hours with me like this is crazy. And at the end, they would be thanking me, right? They would be like, and they would say like that was like cathartic. And like, it's just, you're so right. It's crazy how I feel like even with my show currently, I tend to get into like, it's now we're talking tactics. But I think what your point is like, look, we can relax here. We're here to dig and like wherever this journey goes, it's going to be different. And you're going to find out something about yourself. That's exactly right. And that's I think as much as I love talking about tactics, it's like for me, the real heart is the human being. And in a world where everyone wants another way to tactics, it's like, but are you happy with yourself and at peace with yourself when you go to sleep at night? And if you're not, let's talk about why not? And if you are, let's talk about the reasons that have got you to this point. So yeah, I think that I love it all. And I just think that when you're able to give someone almost like a therapy session, it really lands on them in a unique way. Totally. Well, with that said, let's talk tactics. So during the interview, what do you have in front of you? Usually it depends, right? So for a virtual one, it's half the screen is the person's face and half is the notes. And I'll only look at the notes really. If I'm trying to figure out, where am I going to guide this? Where am I going to take this? How does this relate to something that someone said earlier? In person, I do have a screen with me, but it's not like I'm looking back and forth at the person's face. And the notes, it's more so just like, here it is just in case. And I wonder how much different is a listening experience? When it's virtual versus in person? I've been told that it's not a different experience, but I am looking at the notes way less when I'm in person, which has probably made me trust myself a lot more. Yeah, I'm curious because I remember my Philly show was all in person because everybody was in Philly. And then COVID happened and my current show is all remote because everyone, first of all, it launched in COVID. So everything was remote anyway, but also just everybody's all across the world. Your show, you seem to have a fairly even split, I think. So do you have a preference? Like, do you push for either? It depends. I love virtual recordings, the ease of it, the convenience of it. But I also feel like I can understand someone's energy so much better in person, particularly like what they're like before the show or after. And I get a much better sense of the connection if it's in person. I really want to work on building my own studio or doing stuff at my own place more because it's like I want the unlimited time that a virtual kind of allows for. And the unlimited time that having my own spot would allow for. So that's something that I'm thinking about more and more. And I feel constrained in that sense by the studios. Right. I've, I've found that like, at first I thought the biggest constraint from virtual would be the energy, which it's definitely like there's nothing beats being in person. Like it's just totally, totally different ballgame. But for me, like, I found that the virtual ones tend to get so vigorously scheduled, right? People will like have a meeting like right before and right after it. So it's like in, out, start the interview. I feel like you don't have as much time to just like, hey, man, how are you doing today? Like, you know, let's chill out before we start. So that's kind of what, what I noticed, but I definitely don't have as much of a focus at the beginning of my interviews on that, on how are you doing? Like, what's the presence like? So my question is, does that differ like your sort of warm up routine with the guest? Is it different in person versus virtually? Well, it's different in that I, I typically get them some sort of water or some gift just as a way, a subtle way to. Show them some love and appreciate them. I usually can give them a hug as well. And so they can feel my energy and how much I actually do care about them. So, yeah, I mean, it's little things, but little things make a big difference. Yeah. Well, we're on the topic. I saw the video where Harmosy shouted you out. And I mean, as you know, we all for the past two years hang on everything that that man says. We being like, you know, just like people in the entrepreneur and personal development space. And he also like doesn't shout out a lot of people. So how is that for you? Did you know that was coming? No, no, it was really cool. He wasn't actually going to mention. It didn't seem like he was going to mention my name. And then the host Eric Sue knew the interview that he was talking about. And was like, oh, is that Danny? And he was like, yeah, it was. So it was cool. It was an awesome moment. And I actually clipped that from Eric show. And that's kind of why it went crazy because it's like people who love the podcast were really cool. I love the podcast. We're really excited by that. And yeah, I mean, it was an awesome moment. It was also like, oh, wow, this is another mark in the journey to me that it was just inevitable is the wrong word. But it's just like, this makes sense. Like, all right, here's the next stop. A lot of mile marker. Yeah, mile marker. Yeah, for sure. And it was a great sense of credibility. And a lot of people have contacted me as a result of that happening, which is awesome. And I appreciate that so much because of how respected Hormosi is in the online world. Totally. So bring it back to your interviewing a guest. You're super present because you feel prepared. When you ask a question, while a guest is responding, what are you listening for? That's a great question. I don't know if I've ever been asked that. Thanks, man. Coming from the gang. I'm listening for a few different things. One is, what is hitting me? Like, I'm really, this is why the meditation is so important because it's like, I got to listen to myself first. Which parts of what they're saying, like, trigger something in me. Then I'm thinking about them. I'm thinking about, how does this relate to something this person said earlier? Or how does this relate to some part of this person's story? Then I'm also thinking about, wait, how does this relate to something broader in general? So I think what a good interviewer does is integrates all of these. So like in the moment, the person could be giving one answer and then they're halfway through their answer. And then by the end of their answer, they are on a completely different point and you can switch it all up so that it makes sense and flows. I describe it. It actually sounds crazy because I've never thought about it like that before. But that is what is going on in my mind is I'm trying to figure out what the best next thing to say is. And it's a filter of myself, the person's life and what they've said previously and other ideas that I've drawn from and trying to pick the best answer of those three in that moment. They're almost like an air traffic controller of ideas and thoughts in a way. Because it's true, it sounds on the surface, it sounds simple where you're just listening and then you have a follow-up question, but you're totally right. You've got eight threads going at a single time, but yet you're also super present, which contradicts. So it's just a fascinating skill. And I've heard you say before that interviewing is a skill. I remember last year at podcast movement, I caught up with John Lee Dumas and I asked him like I said, hey man, a lot of podcasters look up to you and are emulating what you do. And I'm willing to bet that you probably wouldn't do the same thing today that you did like 15 years ago when you started E.O.F. So what would you do differently? And he immediately went to he said interviewing is a skill and not a lot of people have that skill. And everyone's starting interviewing shows. So like you don't have to start an interviewing show. But I think the key distinction there is that it is a skill. So how can somebody get better at that skill? The first and that comes to mind is doing it more. If you looked at episode eight or 61, you wouldn't say this guy has a skill for interviewing. You'd say maybe there's potential here, but I definitely didn't consider myself good at it at that point. I mean, the other thing is studying it, collecting great questions, collecting great ideas, right? A great interviewer often has great ideas of their own. And they've spent so much time with so many other great thinkers that it makes sense, right? Chris Williamson, Tim Ferris, Joe Rogan, Oprah Winfrey, Larry King, like... Guy Razz, you end up spending so much time with interesting people that you become interesting. And you have interesting things to say all of a sudden. And I'm like, wait, when did it switch? When did it switch from it actually being interesting to talk to me? You know, at what point? You know, it's like when did the egg hatch, right? And I don't know if it's interesting to talk to me today, but I know that I'm cultivating more interesting ideas today than I was three years ago. Right? Before I started the show. So that's what I think. How do you become a great interview? You spend time with interesting people. And what's amazing is you can spend interesting time with interesting people by virtue of the Internet. Like you could have amazing ideas constantly flowing through you and interesting experiences as well so that you can add to whatever the person is saying. Yeah. So when the interview is over, and I assume you stop recording, what happens after that? Do you also have a checklist? No, I don't have a checklist. When the interview is done, I just tell the person when it's around, it's going to come out. I don't do too much after, like, I don't optimize that process at all. I don't have any... Any, like, moths or haftos at the end of an episode, I maybe one thing to consider that I could imagine myself doing is sending a handwritten note to someone in the future. That's something I would like to do, even just DM it to them, you know, write a handwritten note and then send them a DM or message. Thank you, them. I think that would be a unique touch, which I think would be cool. I just think about it, like, the experience was the experience. But there's always things you can add and I'm always open to hearing different processes. I just never wanted to feel automated in any way. I really wanted to feel like a handwritten note. Yeah. The one thing that I've, through the years, kept is asking, who, and I got this from Tim Ferriss, who do you think would be a good fit for the show? Because that tends to, guess me, get guests, right? It tends to land the craziest names where you're like, they'll make a suggestion and you're like, what, really? So that leads me into, like, guest selection, right? So really, that's where the interview starts is when you choose who to interview. So how do you pick these days? These days, I pick based on alignment. If I gave this person $1 billion, how differently would their life look and how much are they doing the thing that they are called to do? It's like, if you give me $1 billion, I'm still going to be recording this podcast. Wow. Okay. Like, so who are those people, right? Who are those people that are genuinely doing the thing that they are, they love doing and would do it anyway? That's why I want to talk to you. Those are the people that excite me the most in this season of my life. And it might always be that season, but I know for sure right now that those are the people who fired me up. Yeah. What an incredible filter. I've never heard that before. That is awesome. And I'm like, oh no, what would I do? I think I'd probably be here really right now. So I think we both would be the same conversation. It's just our bank accounts have way more zeros, right? So, so then how do you find those folks like is it again, I tend to bring things into the tactical. So it's like, is it a lot of inbound? Like people are reaching out to you. Do you have a process for searching and outbounding guests? Like, what does it look like? Yeah, it's a lot of inbound, but it's also like, I just have a filter for it. I can sense it out of people. I can send someone's motives. I feel like I can have an understanding of of what their intentions are based on how they're showing up online and what type of energy they bring. I can just feel people who are genuinely doing it from the goodness of their heart. And so I'm always just looking for wisdom for ideas for people who are living in their, their alignment and their purpose. And I just asked them on the show if I'm interested in having them on. So we haven't mentioned this yet, but you just recently dropped a course on interviewing, on the art of interviewing. So I'd love to know like, when did you feel that it was that you were ready to make that course? Yeah, it was a few different people who I really respect kind of nudged me that way. But one was Ali Abdul from episode 61. He was like, dude, you got to do a course. You got to do a course. Like, it's supposed to happen. Like, just do it, just do it. And he really helped me. We spend a couple of hours on the phone and he discussed it with me. Then I was talking on that alliance and about the course, who I really respect as well as appeared on the show. A couple of different times, I believe. And he was like, dude, I was telling my struggles with it. I was doing a podcasting course and it wasn't feeling right. It wasn't feeling aligned. And he's like, what about interviewing instead of podcasting? And I was like, that feels right to me. And I was like, wow, like, that's so obvious when you say it, but I didn't think about it myself. And then the third person I respected was Leyla Hormosi when she came on the show. She was like, afterwards to me when, you know, the cameras were off. She was like, you know, Danny, you're really an incredible interviewer. And I was like, I know this woman's filter for excellence is very high. And I know how often she talks about her bar for quality. So all three of those situations, three people, I really respected Amir, all telling me in their own way about my interviewing skills. And then I should do a course and how I should do it kind of led me down the path. And that was over a period of a month or two. And I, after I got that feeling and that knowing I'd all came out off me and all out of me. So that was the process. Yeah. I'm so curious. Now you're speaking to the podcasting guy and this audience is all podcasters. But no, you won't offend us. Why, why wasn't the podcasting course in alignment for you? I think because it put the medium higher than the message. And the medium is audio and the medium is podcast. But what I'm actually doing is understanding someone's soul. And understanding someone's soul is closer to interviewing than it is having a podcast. Does that make sense? Oh, a thousand percent. Yeah. It's like teaching someone how to do blogging versus writing. Yeah. Like that's a huge difference. Let me show you how to grow on Twitter versus let me show you how to write. Yeah. Wow. Like those are two entirely different realities. And so for me, podcasting felt like growing your audience on Twitter. Podcasting felt like let me teach you how to blog versus interviewing felt like. Let me teach you the actual skill that's underneath how to grow a podcast is. Yeah. Awesome. It's one of my, so totally meta. One of my favorite things just happened is I'm like, should I ask that? I'm like, I'm really curious about this. I don't know if I should ask or just move on, ask it. And those are always the answers that are the most gold. You're like, oh, my God, I'm so glad I had that question. So it's, we're talking about interviewing while doing it. So cool, so cool, man. So, so grateful that you're here. All right. So you mentioned podcast growth. This is Grow the Show. We got to talk about it. So tons of questions about that. You now again, in the course of my research, I've heard you say that it was really around the two-year mark that you started to see a growth inflection. So can you talk about what changed at that point? What changed was I started to believe in the show more. And I would do extra things to make it work. What also changed is video king Pablo came about where you started working on the podcast full time because he loved it and enjoyed it and could see where he could add to the show by virtue of doing clips and then eventually editing all the full length video episodes. It was also the point where I moved to Austin. It was also the point like there were so many little things that happened. But the core beneath it all was belief, belief in myself. If I didn't believe in myself in the podcast, I wouldn't have moved to Austin to begin with. Then when I moved to Austin, people are like, oh, wow, this guy really believes in himself. That leads to Pablo coming on. That leads to me interacting with some people that I really admired here. And it's like another thing is I started to track numbers. If you want to grow anything, like actually track the numbers. Like have a spreadsheet, go through every week and be like, this is how many downloads I got. And this is how many impressions I got on the Twitter. And this is how many Instagram, whatever. If you track those and with a focus on actually making them better, you will grow. I mean, that's what I found at least. The periods where I haven't grown is where I wasn't tracking. The periods where I have grown, I have been tracking. It's pretty clear correlation. And I think if grow the show is a tagline and your goal is growth, track the numbers. They will look you in the face and be like, this is what you're doing right or this is what you're doing wrong. If your mission is to grow. Similarly in life, I found that if I step on the scale every day, the number goes down. If I don't step on the scale, the number goes up. It's just that simple. But really at the core of that is you behave differently when you're looking at the numbers. You can see if it's growing or not and so you change your behavior. Likewise, you just said that you started to believe in the show. And so you changed your behavior a little bit. You started doing little things. So I want to zoom in on that. How did your behavior change once you actually believe in the show? What did you do differently? I just would tweet about it more. I would send out more messages. I would do more work behind the scenes. I would do more research. I would be more present. It couldn't even be described as one thing. It was just like, I believe that what I'm doing here is my path towards excellence. This is my craft. This is what I want to pour into. This is the thing that I want to be known for. Okay. If all of that is truly true, then this is what you will do. You will post about it more. I mean, at one point, I remember I was creating like 10 clips a day on Instagram. It's like actually crazy. If you're like by yourself, if you're in college and you just want to grow your podcast, like literally just do more work. What does more work look like? Okay, more work could literally just mean you chop it up, learn video editing, and create 10 clips a day. Who's doing that? No one's doing that. You could do that. And so that is what I started to do myself. And then when I start doing that myself, then video king Pablo is like, dude, these clips are awful. But we can see how much he wants it. This man wants it. This man is acting like he wants it. This man is going after it with everything in his heart. And guess what? The world conforms to you when you're going after something with everything in your heart. Why? Because people love effort. So if it's bad, post it that it's bad because then people might help you and improve your bad in some way if you show that you care that much about your thing. So that's kind of what I did. And I was like, I will not refuse this podcast from working. I will die before this podcast doesn't work. And when you have that level of belief and conviction in yourself, the world that conform to me, the world has said, okay, we accept that you want to do this. Let's go. Next step. You're totally right, man. It's, I never thought about it that way how people really do respect effort. And they'll judge more of that than the quality at this point in time of your work. But if they see that you're really going for it, that you're really like, no, this is what I want to do. Like, yeah, people just come out of the woodworking. Just like, where did you come from? But yes, amazing. Let's work together. It's so cool. Awesome. So we're going to stay in the like short form, social media area and video as well. So video audio, this is a debate that every day I feel like I'm on a different side of the table because some days I'm like, it's true. Like, dude, if you're on YouTube, if you're doing short form, things just grow so much faster when you have that. But what's also true is that it's a different skill set. It's a different medium. It's more expensive to do it well. And also some people read, some people watch, some people listen. So I don't necessarily believe that everyone has to do video. What do you think about all this on this tug of war? Some people say you podcasters have to do video. Some people don't. Where do you fall? You have two great examples of Patrick O'Shaughnessy and David Sennra. Patrick runs Invest Like The Best, one of the best interviewers in the world. He posts audio only. Then you have David Sennra. Audio only. Founders podcast. Both incredible. Both remarkably successful. And they do just do audio. So there's the end of the debate right there from my perspective of like, look, it worked for them. And they've posted, I think they've both done their show for over five years, maybe even seven. But it's clear that you can succeed doing audio only. I agree, though, with what you said about if you want to go faster, do video too. Because that's another way for people to get to know you and see you. And that's amazing as well. If you want to grow faster, I think video. Mark Manson said was very fascinating to me since he's seen different parts of the internet where he's like. Video currently is where tech space media was 10 to 15 years ago. And Mark Manson grew up on blogs and that's where he became successful, which was tech space media. And he looks at the landscape right now. And he says from his estimation, and he obviously could be wrong, but he's a very smart guy. Because video is currently where text was 10 years ago or 15 years ago. So to me, that's like a, okay, Mark, I see you. I understand. And he wasn't talking about podcasts specifically, but just general as a whole. And so I found that interesting and of note. And he said that in the past couple of weeks and I could send you the tweet. Yeah, I love that. Like, what does he mean by that? Like, what's the message? The message is there was a huge opportunity in blogs 10 to 15 years ago. And it was a wide open space and it was super exciting. And anyone could create a blog and it could be successful 10 to 15 years ago. I mean, I created a blog 10 to 15 years ago that Gary Vaynerchuk commented on in 2009. Totally. And Tim Ferris started around that era 15 years ago with his blog and Ryan Holiday with his blog. Like a lot of these people that we know today as thought leaders or whatever they started with blogs back then. And so I guess what Mark Manson is saying is that the era of tech space media being successful. Like who's starting a blog today that is being successful and that is growing by virtue of just having their blog or just their Twitter account. There are some, but it's usually some audio or video involved in that as well. And so that's what Mark is saying that it's very early for video. You know, as you say that I'm reminded of a former client of Grow the Show who just yesterday was featured on Pat Flynn show. His name is Brian Lubin, totally has blown up. He's just an absolute incredible incredible dude. I love Brian. You know, right? He hates you and Austin. Yeah. Yeah. We got a bunch like, I don't know, in the last six months. Yeah. Next time all the time. That's awesome. Yeah, Brian's a man. I'll actually be there in a week or two. So I'm going to finally meet him in person. So your point was, and I guess Mark's point is that it's really early in video. And as you say that I am debunking my head of belief that I just expressed, which is that it's really expensive to do video because I think of Brian. Brian's podcast is audio only, but he has blown up in video, but all just like the most low five, just like, you know, shooting selfie videos of himself. Like, so that just goes to show that like, it's totally possible and proves that it is totally early. You can do something super low five. And if you're consistent with it, you can blow up super fast like Brian did. Yes. And if you have a great personality like you or Brian, like, it'll work. Like, I looked at Brian's stuff and I'm like, this guy's actually funny. This guy actually has good commentary. Like, I could never do what he's doing. You know, I'm just not that charismatic in that way. And so I just am like, this is amazing. And this is part of his skills. Yeah. Fantastic. Let's talk a little bit more about short form, specifically short form videos. Yes. So is there anything that you've learned recently about what does and what doesn't work when it comes to repurposing interview clips to get reached? Sure. Sure. So I'll tell you on Instagram since that's where I found the most success. It's been anywhere from 10 to 15 seconds. One point that in the first three seconds, you state an opinion or state something that is controversial in some way. And the videos that I've posted like that have gotten millions and millions of views. 10 to 15 seconds. That's so short. 10 to 15 seconds. One point. Really quick. Quick hitter. I have a few in my course that I highlighted that I show exactly. Look, this one. Look at the first three seconds of this and look at this clip. It's got seven million views because of this statement like. Fantastic. 10.50. Amen. That's crazy because we were we've been making like, we were like, oh, you can make 90 seconds now. Let's make a 90 second clip. But it sounds like you should actually go in the not you should, but like it sounds like going in the opposite direction. Be more effective. Dude, don't take my word for it. I don't view or I don't look at one short form clip. Meaning I watch my own to post them, but I don't watch anyone else's. I don't scroll the feed. I don't know anything about short form. And I don't consider myself an expert on it or consider myself good in any way at it. And I feel like if I studied it, I could do better. But I feel like it zaps my brain when I watch short form content. And so because of that, I don't want to look at it at all because it takes my presence away. And I'm like, all right, like if I lose on this area, I'm okay with that. You know, so that's how I'm viewing it right now. And I don't view myself as the expert. And I view myself as doing it quite poorly. I'm just sharing what's worked for me. Sure. Is there anything else in particular that you're doing these days to grow the reach of the show? There's nothing really that stands out top of mine. I'm just focused on having amazing do it well. Amazing interviews and really giving attention to each person and understanding that my next big guest or my next thing that takes me to another level or whatever is like in some sense out of my control in that I didn't plan to get Alex Ramose on the show. A guest that I had previously done an amazing job with said I got to introduce you to him in some capacity. I didn't plan to get Andy for selling on the show. A person that I helped randomly start a podcast or gave advice to said I'm friends with his friends. So like I've understood the serendipity of life and how I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be in every moment to just do the best job you can with every person you talk to in every situation you talk to because you don't know where the next big break is going to come from. And I focus way more on that than how do I game the short form algorithm? How do I do this the right way? Like let me just focus on the moment and let the chips fall where they may because it's been a pretty good stack thus far of life and let's just keep that going. That's awesome. What a great way to look about it. And it's true, man, if there's a lot of times where I think I hear the questions that certain podcasters are asking and I'm like, man, if you put half of the energy that you're putting into finding hacks, finding ways to grow your show with no effort if you took half that energy and put it into making your podcast better, you wouldn't have to worry about growth hacks. Like it really has to do with the product. Yeah. And I feel like I could probably utilize more hacks since I'm like 100% in the other way of no hacks. I don't want to do it that way. Like give me some more hacks. I probably need it. That's so funny. That's just my way of being. That's my ethos. I don't think it's right. I just think it's the way I do it. Yeah. Awesome. That is awesome, man. I'm so fired up now. Thank you so, so much for your energy. You know, if folks want to learn more from you about interviewing, what can they do? Art of interviewing.com, ART of interviewing.com is probably the best place to learn more about interviewing. But you could always just do a few hundred episodes yourself without the course. And you'll get everything basically that I teach in there. And so I don't expect or need anyone to buy it. I think it's an amazing resource. It's the resource that I wish I had when I started. But also you don't need to have it. You could just do the work. Yeah. Well, I'll vouch for it, man. I've taken it. It's it's I'm an interviewer for five years. And I got so much from it. So like really, really well done. Great job with it. And so I'll speak to it and say, you can do a hundred or you can just skip it and grab Danny's course and have it all in an hour. Thank you. And I'm excited to add to it as well. I want to do like live breakdowns this month. I want to include of specific moments from interviews that I think were amazing. And just be like, this is amazing. Look why this is great. And so I'm thinking about the ways I can add to it and things I can add as well. Awesome. Well, looking forward to seeing that, man. And once again, thank you so so much for joining us here on Grow the Show. I appreciate you so much for having me. Thank you for the thoughtful interview. And I really, it means the world as a student of the craft. That is going to do it for this episode of Grow the Show. Now I have a quick favor to ask you. If you've ever gotten any value from this podcast and you haven't already, please leave us a five star rating. And if you're feeling generous, a review in the app that you're using to hear my voice right now. It just takes a couple seconds, but it really goes a long way in helping us to share even more valuable growth and monetization tactics here on the show because it helps us land bigger guests. And it helps show the world that what we're doing here is actually valuable. So once again, if you've ever gotten any value from the show and you haven't already, please just take a moment. Leave us a five star rating. Maybe a brief review on what type of value you've gotten and I will be eternally grateful. This episode was produced by me with post production by podcast boutique. And if you want your show to be post produced with quality really freaking fast. And if you want to save yourself and your team tons of time working on your podcast, you should chat with podcast boutique. Just head to podcast boutique.com or click the link in the show notes and set up time with them because I spent no time editing this episode and neither should you. All right, that's going to do it for Grow the Show. My name is Kevin Schviddlin. I'll see you next time.