129: How to Exponentially Grow Your Podcast on Autopilot with Targeted Pitching

This episode of Grow the Show is sponsored by Riverside.fm, the leading platform to record studio quality podcasts. More than 70,000 other podcasters use Riverside, including myself, GuyRaz, GaryVee, Spotify, and The New York Times. Riverside is not only great because it has unbelievably high recording quality regardless of your or your guests' internet quality, but it also gives you separate audio and video tracks for each person speaking. It's high tech, but easy to use. You don't have to have anything installed on your computer and your guests don't either. And overall, the audio quality is way better. Riverside also now supports text-based editing. You can now edit your high quality video and audio content by browsing a transcript of your recording and editing the text just like you do with a word processor. This will speed up your editing process and you can even edit your content without listening to it. So if you're recording your interviews remotely, hop into Riverside for your next interview. Your listeners will thank you. Visit Riverside.fm and use my code Grow15 that's GROW15 to start recording studio quality sound and video and to get 15% off a membership plan. Grow the show listeners. I'm going to share with you the podcast growth framework that has completely changed the game. And no, it is not targeted daily engagement or TDE. TDE is great. If you haven't heard of TDE before, definitely check out episode 8 of this show. If you're just starting out as a podcaster, TDE can absolutely get you your first two to three hundred listeners. But if you've ever done TDE before and you've established the habit, you will notice something. After doing TDE for a while and getting results and seeing audience growth from just engaging for 15 minutes every single day on social media eventually, you will notice that your growth rate will fall flat, meaning by continuously doing TDE and reaching out to folks and getting them to discover you and listen to your podcast on social media, your show will grow. But the rate at which your show grows eventually will tap out. And that's because TDE is a linear growth strategy. Meaning you get out what you put in the more time you put into target and daily engagement, the more your show will grow. But TDE is really not going to give you that hockey stick exponential growth that you crave as a podcast listener. And so today I am excited to present to you the sequel to TDE. It is our second level grow the show growth framework and just by testing this framework once one time I gave this framework a test and it grew the grow the show podcast audience by 25% in one week. And the show already had more than a thousand downloads per episode at that time. Since then we've tested this framework not only with myself but with several grow the show accelerator clients and I'm proud to say that some of the biggest growth months we've seen for our clients in the grow the show accelerator have come from this strategy. And so if you're looking for a way to systemize podcast growth, make it happen on autopilot and make it exponential, then stay tuned. Now it is no secret in the podcast world what is one of the most effective and efficient ways to grow a podcast audience and you can probably guess it. It's getting yourself and your podcast featured on other podcasts and there are several reasons why that is the most sure fire way to grow a podcast audience. Number one, it's because every single human being that you reach while employing this audience growth strategy is already a podcast listener. How do you know that? Well, they hear you on another podcast. And while there are other audience growth strategies that do work to grow podcast audience like targeted daily engagement going viral on social media, SEO, news articles, stuff like that. The problem with those strategies is that they are not 100% efficient, meaning less than 100% of the people that you reach via that strategy are actually podcast listeners. For example, if you have a local podcast and your local newspaper does a story about your podcast, guess what? Probably only 50 to 60% of the people who read that story actually listen to podcasts on a regular basis. So while you may have reached literally hundreds of thousands of people with that article literally hundreds of thousands of people you reached aren't going to do anything with that information and they're not going to become listeners because they don't listen to podcasts. So if you focus your podcast growth strategies on strategies that will reach people while they're already listening to a podcast on a podcast or in a podcast app, you're going to reach 100% podcast listeners. The second reason why getting featured on other podcasts is so freaking effective is that not only do you confirm that the person who hears you that discovers you with this strategy is already a podcast listener, but you also reach them in the very moment that they are in the context of being a podcast listener. You see, people listen to podcasts at really defined times in their weekly routine. It's usually where they're working out or commuting or doing chores or something like that. If that person finds out about your podcast at a time where they're not already listening to a podcast, it actually is less likely that they will become a listener because in order to listen to your show, they have to either stop what they're doing right now and go listen to a podcast, which nobody does. Or they discover your show. They're interested in it, but they're not going to listen to podcasts until later today when they drive home. And so when they get in their car to drive home or when they start to do whatever activity they do while they listen to podcasts, they have to remember that they discovered your show. They have to remember what its name was, what your name was. They have to remember to type it in and subscribe. And that stuff is just not as likely to happen. So the second reason why getting yourself featured on other podcast feed is so freaking effective is because not only are you reaching people who are definitely podcast listeners, but you're reaching them at the moment where they are literally most likely to click over to a podcast and start to listen. The third reason why being a guest on other podcast is so freaking effective is because by just spending one hour getting interviewed for a podcast, you can literally reach millions of people. Many other podcast growth strategies are going to be a little bit more linear than that in fashion, where the amount of people that you reach is directly proportionate to the amount of time that you spend trying to reach them or the amount of money that you spend trying to reach them. But getting featured on other podcasts is kind of exponential. If you get yourself on a show that has 50,000 listeners, then in one hour of time, you're going to reach 50,000 people. It's really hard to beat that with any other podcast growth strategy. Finally, not only is that one hour of your time going to reach hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions of people at once, but it's also going to continue to reach those people for as long as the podcast is live. So due to the evergreen nature of podcasts, there's a good chance that that one hour you spent today getting featured on a good growing podcast, you are going to reach new podcast listeners, spending no extra money or time for years to come. So because of those four reasons getting yourself featured on other podcasts is far and beyond one of the most surefire and effective ways to grow your podcasts audience. Now this is again, probably not news to you. And quite frankly, as somebody who has devoted his entire career to discovering synthesizing and disseminating podcast growth strategies, it's kind of crazy how whenever you ask any podcaster who has achieved anything, the best way to grow your podcast, most of them say getting featured on other podcasts. So why then aren't all podcasters doing this? Well, there's actually five reasons that I've found why getting featured on other podcasts doesn't work for most podcasters. The reason number one is they do what podcast guessing expert Angie Trueblood calls spray and prey, which means podcasters understand that they want to get featured on other podcasts. And so in order to do so, what they do is they craft a really vague podcast pitch pitching themselves in their incredible story, and they send that podcast pitch to literally tens, maybe even hundreds of thousands of podcasts. They literally just pitch themselves to every podcast that's on Apple podcasts and odds are, if you have an interview show, you've already seen some of these terrible, awful, totally unpersonalized pitches hit your email inbox. As you already know, they don't work. And if you haven't already just give it time before you get a pitch from some 30 year old billionaire who got cancer and almost died and then came back and wants to tell his story of resilience to your audience. Now, don't get me wrong. Volume is not a bad thing. I am not saying that you should not send a lot of podcast pitches. What I'm saying is sending thousands of podcast pitches that are totally unpersonalized and vague to the wrong podcasts is a way to make it so that you don't get featured on a lot of podcasts. That said, the second reason why this often doesn't work for podcasters is actually related to what I just said podcasters understand that they need to get themselves featured on other podcasts to grow. But they try it once they send maybe one or two pitches. They don't hear back from the show that they pitched and they say, this doesn't work. It does work. The thing is you just didn't do enough volume. So if you're a podcaster who has tried getting yourself featured on other podcasts and it hasn't worked for you, it's probably because either you sent tons of pitches but your targeting was bad or you didn't send enough pitches and you didn't have enough volume. You need good targeting and volume in order to get growth. The framework that I'm about to share with you is going to make it really easy for you to achieve both targeting and volume. So it'll make it easier for you to achieve growth. But there's still three more things to watch out for and three more reasons why podcasters get tripped up when trying to grow their show by getting featured on other podcasts. The third one is this. They spend too much time getting interviewed on shows that have zero listenership. Now now if you are somebody who has zero listenership, I am not saying that it is not worthwhile to be on your show. What I am saying is that it's not as worthwhile to be on your show than it is to be on shows with more listeners. Nothing personal. It's just a fact. And so if you're trying to get yourself featured on other shows and you're spending time getting interviewed by amateur podcasters who have 50 listeners who don't listen to the grow the show podcast and are never going to learn how to get more than 50 listeners. Then guess what that hour is going to be a complete and total waste because not only are you not reaching a lot of people, but you're also probably not getting featured on a good podcast. So you're probably not going to be presented in a really good light. So number three, they may achieve volume. They may achieve a targeted pitch, but they get themselves featured on shows that have literally no listenership and they get no return on their time investment. The fourth reason why podcasters get tripped up getting themselves featured on other shows is this they're not good podcast guests. They suck as podcast guests. They don't have good compelling stories to tell. They speak really monotone and say things in a really boring way. They don't have specific knowledge to provide. They just speak in platitudes and can actually provide any unique value. Or and the one that I see the most is that they might actually be a great podcast guest, but they don't take full advantage of making a great call to action at the end of their time as a guest. You know when the host says so if people want to find out more about you, where should they go? They completely bungled that. Now in the growth show podcast accelerator, we actually give you scripts on exactly what to say when you're asked that question when you're being featured as another podcaster. I can't share them here, but suffice it to say that you need to provide a specific call to action something really specific for the listener to do. And it's a good idea to tie that call to action to the thing that you just talked about. Anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about today. The fifth reason why podcasters get tripped up trying to get themselves featured on other podcasts is that they do it all willy nilly. They don't have a systemized approach for getting featured where they don't have to think about it. They don't have to remember to do it and they don't have to wonder, should I do more or should I do less? If that's you, if you're somebody who is a good podcast guest, you understand targeting you understand volume, but you haven't systemized this and made it a part of your monthly routine. Then I've got news. You don't have that much farther to go to get the hockey stick podcast growth that you've always wanted. And so let's talk about how you can do that without further ado, I am so excited to present to you targeted podcast pitching or TPP. The framework that is going to show you how you can 10X your show in a matter of months. Let's get to it. This framework is going to have us do the opposite of the five things that I told you podcasters mess up when trying to get featured on other shows. Number one, instead of spring and praying, we are going to target specific podcasts that are almost guaranteed to have our really targeted specific audience already listening to them. Number two, we are only going to target shows that are at equal size or larger than ours. We are not going to spend time being a guest on shows that are smaller than ours. That's not to say that you can never do that. It's super fun. It's a blast, but just not regularly. Number three, we will be great podcast guests. We will tell amazing stories. We'll have incredible specific knowledge to provide and we will make a really, really compelling and specific call to action at the end of our time being interviewed. Number four, we will systemize it by regularly pitching and guessing on shows like clockwork and number five, we are going to keep at it until it works. We are not going to try it two or three times and give up. We are going to achieve the volume that we need as well as the targeting that we need. Side note, this is not only the most effective audience growth tactic, but in my opinion, it is the most fun because it is super fun to be interviewed on other podcasts. It's a blast. You are not going to have to bring yourself to do this. Now before I tell you how to systemize this and how to bake it into your monthly routine, I want to give you two keys to maximizing your success and maximizing the acceptance rate that you get when pitching podcasts that are of equal or bigger size than yours. Number one, when you pitch yourself to be a guest on other podcasts, do not pitch yourself. Pitch a topic. It's kind of like if you've ever been featured at a conference before. When you submit yourself to be considered as a speaker at a conference, you don't submit yourself. You don't say, hey, will you feature me at your conference? Instead, you submit a topic. You submit what you can talk about and the conference oftentimes makes you tell them what you're going to talk about exactly what your points are going to be and what the audience is going to get out of your talk. We need to take the same approach to pitching ourselves to other podcasts. Don't pitch yourself and your story and what you have accomplished. Pitch your topic, what you can talk about, the points you can make and what the listener will come away with after hearing you. Just by making that little change in perspective, you're going to go from begging the host of the show that you're pitching to do you a favor by featuring you to instead doing the host a favor by presenting them a fully fleshed out content topic and episode topic. They'll be grateful to you for having you on the show. So that's number one, pitch episode topics, not yourself and number two, and this is the key to make TPP work. Prioritize pitching shows that you have a mutual or second degree connection to meaning you and the host of that podcast have a friend or connection in common. And I know what you're thinking there aren't many podcasters that I have a mutual connection to wrong and you're about to find out just how many podcasts you have a second degree connection to now. I'm not saying you can't cold pitch shows and you can't pitch yourself for podcasts that you don't have a mutual connection to. But man, once you understand how many you do if you prioritize those, you're not going to waste your time pitching shows that you don't already have a connection to. Finally, I know I'm taking a long time to cut to the chase here, but I do want to get this stuff in your head before I explain this framework and you run off and start implementing it. The question that you're probably most likely to have at the end of here is, okay, great. When can I start TPP? When is it too early? When is it too late? When is it the right time to start doing TPP? Let me answer that first before I explain how to do it. You can do TPP targeted podcast pitching whenever you have a discrete topic that you would be a good podcast guest to talk about. So even if you haven't launched your podcast yet, if you have a discrete topic that you can talk about as a great podcast guest, you can start doing TPP. There are tons of people who are guests on podcasts all the time who don't have podcasts. However, if you're somebody that really doesn't have a discrete thing that you can talk about as a guest on other podcasts and you don't yet really have an audience, that's okay. I would hold off doing TPP until a couple of things are true. Number one, you want to have a category of one premise, a cat one premise, meaning your show is really unique and it's in a category of one. Number two, you want to check your podcast episode retention rates. Make sure they are above 70%, meaning people listen to on average more than 70% of your podcast episodes. If it's below that, then people aren't listening to your show. So the doesn't really matter how many people you get to tune in. They're not going to stick around. Number three, I would focus on getting your show beyond 150 downloads per episode before you start trying this. That allows you to really get that podcast audience fit that you're looking for. And then finally, you want to make sure that your download numbers are at least growing a little bit via either TDE or word of mouth or something else. Just so that you know your show is ready and poised to have kerosene poured on it. And so again, those aren't steadfast rules. You can say F me and just go and do it and it probably will work. But in general, I do recommend you have those things covered before you start doing this because number one, you want to make sure that your podcast is poised to grow and is a great show that is ready to have people listening to it and mass. Because if it's not yet, you're going to want to fix that before you really send tons and tons of people to your show. Secondly, podcast guest acceptances can be sporadic. So what I'm going to teach you is have you pitching 50 to 70 shows a month really, really easily. But sometimes, you know, one week you'll get accepted onto 15 shows other times a week will go by and you won't get any acceptances. And so, you know, this is something that you have a little bit less control over. And then the third thing is sometimes you get interviewed on a podcast and it literally takes the podcaster six months or more to publish the interview. You can't wait six months to grow your podcast. So for these reasons, you want to make sure that you have a good show and that you know how to grow it in other ways before you start investing your time in TPP. Remember, though, TPP is evergreen and it compounds. It is about the best investment in time you can make as a podcaster. So let's talk about how to do that. Now, there are two parts of TPP. There are two functions. There's TPP research, which is where you research the shows that are going to be a great fit for you to be a guest on. And then there is TPP pitching where you actually do the work to send a personalized pitch to those really targeted shows. The rest of our time here together today, we're going to focus on the TPP research component and you're going to learn how to select what shows you are going to pitch for targeted podcast pitching. Now, like I said before, when doing research to discover what podcasts you would be a great fit to be a guest on and you'll probably get tons of listeners by being a guest on. You want to go in a reverse bullseye order, meaning you prioritize shows that you have the closest personal connection to. And so you're really going to want to go in this order. Number one, you're going to want to prioritize shows that you have a direct first degree connection to meaning you personally know and are friends with the podcaster who is the host of that show. That's going to be friends and colleagues, yes, but it's also going to be the guests that you have had on your podcast. How many people have you had on your podcast who also have podcasts that you have not been a guest on start there. Secondly, and the biggest one, and this is the one that's going to be the game changer for you here is you want to target podcasts where you have had mutual guests. This is where we are going to spend the bulk of our energy while doing targeted podcast pitching. Consider this for a moment. There's a good chance that your show has guests on it. And if you're somebody who doesn't have any guests on your show, we'll talk about in a little bit how you can adapt TPP to work for you. But in most cases, you have guests on your shows, right? You do interviews, you interview other people. Well, odds are they've been on podcasts other than yours before or after, right? Yours is not the only show that they've ever been on. And so what's also probably true is that the other shows that that guests have been on are probably worth being on, right? If that person is somebody that you have considered worthy to be on your show and they considered your show worthy of being on. Well, if your show is not the only show they have ever been on, then that means that they have considered other podcasts as worthy of being on. So number one, every single guest that you have had on your podcast that has also been a guest on other podcasts has already vetted and validated that all those other shows that they have been on were worth it. Now, yes, there will be some where afterwards they're like, wow, that wasn't worth it. But for the majority of them, you already have validation of what shows are worth being on. So right off the bat, you have a great filtering mechanism to just literally see a list of podcasts that are probably worth being on. The second thing that makes this great is that not only has this mutual guest that you've had already validated that the other podcast is probably a good fit, but you now have a personal connection. You have something in common with them. You've both had the same guest. So right out of the gate, you have something to vibe with. And you have been validated to the other podcaster and that is the key. So what we're going to do is when we pitch that other podcast that your mutual guest has been on, we will lead with that and say, oh my gosh, you had John Smith on your podcast. So did I. Wasn't he a great guest. By the way, have you considered doing an episode about blank? That's the secret folks. Literally TPP is just that finding the huge list of other podcasts that your guests have been on. Getting in contact with them, vibing about the fact that you both had the same awesome guest on your show and then talking about being on each other's shows. That's it. Now before I tell you how to really, really efficiently do that research, discover what those shows are and getting contact with the host. Let me talk quickly about those people who haven't had a lot of guests on their podcast. So if you're someone who hasn't had any guests ever or you haven't had a lot of guests on your podcast, that's okay. You just want to replace that mutual guest with just some other mutual connection. Right. So odds are if you are totally doing it by yourself, you're not having any guests on your show. You probably at least are friends with some of the peers in your space that have already been on other podcasts. Right. So if I was an expert on Broadway and I made a show that told Broadway stories and didn't really ever have guests on that show. What I would do is just target people in the Broadway space who I am peers with and friends with who have been on other podcasts and have prevented and pre-selected other shows for you to be a guest on or for me to be a guest on. I'm losing the analogy here, but I would just reach out to all those shows and say, oh my gosh, you had so and so we're good friends. By the way, you should have me. Like I said, don't phrase it like that, but you go what I'm saying. Finally, if you have literally no connections and you don't feature guests on your show, first of all, you're going to figure out how to make more connections. But either way, you can use TDE to make friends with people who have been on other podcasts and then use those as mutual connections to get you featured on other shows. Now, as you're doing this, as you're going through looking at the guests that you had in your show, seeing what shows they have already been on and selecting which of those shows would be a good fit to have you on, you are absolutely going to come across podcasts that are totally not a good fit for you to be on. The very first guest of my podcast grow the show was Eric Newsom. He is the author of an incredible podcasting book, which I highly recommend called Make Noise. And he came on the show to talk about how to define your podcast in 10 words or less highly recommended if you haven't heard it yet, definitely give it a listen. But when I do TPP for Eric Newsom, the way I would do that is, okay, I would say, okay, what other shows has Eric Newsom been a guest on? Odds are. Those are probably good shows for me to be a guest on because we are both podcasts experts, although I'm totally not in the same league as Eric, but still. The thing is, Eric is not only a podcast producer and podcast writer. He's also a fiction writer and a very accomplished author at that. And so Eric Newsom has been featured on several podcasts that are about totally different things other than podcasting, like fiction writing or sci-fi. A sci-fi show is probably not a good fit for me to spend my time trying to get more podcasters like you to discover me. So I probably don't want to pitch those sci-fi shows to have me on to talk about podcasting. The same thing's going to be true for you too. So as you get the list of other shows that your guests have also been a guest on, you're going to want to filter out based on shows that aren't a good fit. This does not mean that you should only pick shows that are exactly your niche. You can absolutely and should pick shows that may not specifically be your niche, but may either be adjacent to your niche or a superset of your niche. And what I mean by a superset is this, I help podcasters learn how to grow their audience. I help podcasting entrepreneurs learn how to get new listeners to their podcast. That is called marketing. Grow the show is a marketing resource. Now I could get myself featured on other podcasts that are there to help you grow your podcast. But what would also be a really, really good bang for my book is to be on podcasts that are about marketing. My niche podcasting content marketing is a subset of marketing. So I might target instead of just podcasts about podcasting, I would target podcasts about marketing, which is a superset of podcast growth. Similarly, I might pick something that's kind of adjacent to podcasting like being a YouTuber or something like that. But what I wouldn't do is pick shows that are totally not even close to podcasting or totally not even close to my niche, because that's just not going to get you anything. The next thing that you want to check before pitching a show is what the overall audience size is. And there's really two ways that you can check that. The first way is to fire up Apple podcasts and look at how many ratings they have. Now this is not a direct one to one indication of how big a show is. There are some really large shows that don't have a lot of ratings. There are some small shows that have tons of ratings. But either way, it generally is a pretty good indication. And so what I would do is I would look to see how many ratings my show has on Apple podcasts. And then try to only pitch shows that have an equal or greater amount of ratings or similar. Another place you can go to compare audience size is listen notes. Listen notes is a podcast database that actually gives every podcast what's called a listen score or LS. Now, not every podcast has a listen score just podcasts that have reached a certain critical mass of audience size will have a listen score. And so if you don't have one, that's okay. It's not that hard to get one. But a listen score again is not an exact metric because listen notes doesn't actually know how many downloads each podcast has. But using publicly available data and their really robust database, they're able to make a really good guess and they have an algorithm that takes that guess and puts it to a number. And so if you want to see how a podcast audience compares to yours, look up your show on listen notes and then look up that podcast on listen notes and compare the LS number. Again, I'm not saying that you should never be a guest on shows that don't have an LS number depending on how many people you're trying to reach. Sometimes those are the most fun conversations and they can be really valuable. And again, if you don't have an LS, it's totally fine. But overall, I would avoid pitching shows that have a vastly lower LS number than your show because it's just not going to get the same amount of bang for the amount of time that you spend on that podcast interview. And also odds are that shows that have really low or no listen scores don't know how to get new listeners. They don't know how to captivate an audience. They don't know how to create an amazing show. So not only are you not going to reach a lot of people, but you're probably not going to be presented in the best light. And again, if you are someone who doesn't have an LS and you feel like I'm calling you out, then get your, get your LS up there. I'm here to help with that. Finally, before you go about pitching these shows, remember you want to ideally have some sort of discreet, almost Ted Talk or conference talk pitch that you can pitch to those folks. And so when you pitch them, you mentioned two things. Number one, the mutual connection that you have, hey, we're mutual friends with so and so. And number two, by the way, have you considered doing an episode about XYZ? I think it would really help your audience because this. And if you're currently accepting guest pitches, I love to throw my hat in the ring as somebody who could talk about that. If you do what I just mapped out for you, where once a month, just once for a couple hours, maybe on a Saturday or something like that, you sit down, do what we call TPP research, where you use either listen notes or Apple podcasts to search for the other podcasts that your best guests have been on. You get those podcasts, contact information, you pitch them using the two guidelines that I just provided to you, they accept you get featured on that show, you repeat that over and over again, you make it so that you're a guest on five to 10 podcasts every single month. Let me tell you, give yourself a year of doing that and watch how big your audience gets. And again, I'm here to tell you, this is not only the most effective and most scalable podcast growth technique, but it is also the most fun. Finally, I just want to give you a little bit of guidelines on how to do that TPP research because I kind of glossed over it there. Now for clients in the Grow the Show podcast accelerator, we actually do your TPP research for you. So once a month, we present to you a report of between 50 and 70 shows, where my team has already done all this research that I have mapped out and you just get the list of shows and you just get to reach out and pitch them, but totally fine if you're not in the accelerator. And you have to join in order to grow up, you can do it yourself. And the way to do that is either via Apple podcasts or via listen notes. On Apple podcasts, if you search the name of the guests that you've had and you want to see what other shows they have been on, search their name and Apple podcasts and scroll to the episodes portion. And you will see every episode that that person has been on and get this, it'll be sorted where the shows that are probably the biggest and hottest will be presented first. So the first few shows that you see are probably the best ones for you to pitch. That is the totally free way to do it. If you have a little bit of extra budget, you can also use listen notes and you can subscribe to listen notes pro or whatever they call it, listen notes premium. I think it's $10 for a day, which is a lot, but you're not going to be using it every day. If you just use it one day a month, it's just $10 for the day, sit down for a couple hours. Use the search engine to search what I just told you search for those podcasts, write them down, then go find their contact information and start pitching them. And by the way, if you pay for listen notes for that $10 a day or whatever it is, they will also present to you that podcasters publicly available email address that's on their RSS feed. So it literally is about the best $10 you can spend. You do have to spend a couple hours of your time to do this research. But again, if you got 10 extra bucks, it's going to make it way quicker than if you use Apple podcasts. Again, friendly reminder, we'll do all that crap for you if you're a growth show accelerator client. So if you're interested in that and you want to apply to the program, the link is in the show notes. Already so today I have presented to you what I believe will be the game changing framework more so than TDE that is hopefully going to change the face of the podcasting industry and that is targeted podcast pitching. Number one, select the top guests that you have had on your podcast start with 10. Number two, research the other podcasts that those guests have already been on. Number three, of the podcasts that you find, select the ones that are most likely to be hoarding your future listeners. Number four, reach out to the hosts and producers of those shows letting them know that you have a mutual friend in common. You had the same guest and while you're doing that, throw your hat in the ring to be considered to talk about a really specific and valuable topic that that podcaster would love to have you on their show to talk about. And you're on the show, be a great guest, tell amazing stories and at the end, make a call to action that sends the listeners to a specific episode of your show that's related to what you just talked about. That's it folks, just do that. Spend one day a month doing your TPP research, spend another day pitching all the shows, watch the acceptances roll in, get yourself featured on five to 10 or more shows every single month depending on how quickly you want your show to grow. Watch the downloads pour in, watch your show start to grow exponentially. And after that happens, if you happen to see me or we happen to get in touch, just let me know how well it worked for you because I'd love to hear it. Alrighty, so that is it. You have just learned the sequel to our previously flagship framework TDE CPP targeted podcast pitching and I hope that you start to use that immediately take action, start to get yourself featured on other shows, have a blast getting interviewed on other podcasts and watch the downloads start to pour in. If you have any questions for how to best execute this framework or if you need any help whatsoever, join us in the free Grow the Show Facebook group, ask the question there are tons of podcasts that are already seasoned in TPP who are in there ready to help you and of course feel free to tag me as well and I'd be happy to weigh in. And if you got any value from this at all, I invite you to please leave a rating and review and in the review, let me know that this episode was the one that was super valuable to you. I'd love to hear from you there. That's it for today. Once again, my name is Kevin Schmidland. Thank you so much. This episode was written by me edited by Catherine Nails. We'll see you next week.