123: How Your Podcast Trailer Can Make Or Break You, with Arielle Nissenblatt and Tim Villegas

This episode of Grow the Show is sponsored by Riverside.fm, the leading platform to record studio quality podcasts from anywhere. More than 70,000 other podcasters use Riverside, including myself, GuyRaz, GaryVee, companies like Spotify, and even the New York Times. What's amazing about Riverside is that when you're recording a podcast or a remote interview, the recording quality is independent of Wi-Fi stability, which is huge. Your content is recorded locally, which ensures reliable and uncompressed content quality. It's basically a studio inside your browser, and it is super intuitive and easy to use. Once your recording is done, you'll automatically be able to download separate audio and video tracks and edit your content all with a few clicks. If you haven't yet, give Riverside a try. Visit Riverside.fm and use my code Grow15 that's GROW15 to start recording studio quality sound and video and get 15% off a membership plan. Do you have a trailer for your podcast? Do you even need a trailer for your podcast? Is a podcast trailer something that you should devote any of your limited time and resources towards making? Well, whether you've just launched your podcast or your show has been around for years, there's a good chance that you've asked yourself one of these questions. I know I have. This podcast Grow the Show has been around for almost three years, and if you look at the audio feed or the YouTube channel, you'll notice that there is not currently a trailer for Grow the Show. And what I know now after having a conversation that you're about to hear is that not having a trailer is a mistake. I need to make a trailer right away. But before I do, what I really want to know is a couple of things. Number one, what does a trailer do and why is it important? Number two, how can I make a trailer that does the job it's supposed to do? And number three, what do I do with the trailer after it's made? Well, I already know the answers to those questions because I made the episode that you are about to listen to, but I didn't know them before I recorded this episode. And the reason that I made this episode is to answer those questions for you. So that's what this episode is going to do. In this episode, you're going to learn all that you need to know about podcast trailers. And you're going to learn that from two count them two podcasters who have devoted 2023 to the art of making great podcast trailers. So if you're ready to take your podcasts the next level by doing the thing that multi-million dollar movie studios do to promote their stuff, then let's get to it. This is Grow the Show. The podcast to help you grow your podcast. My name is Kevin Sridland. I am a multi-seven figure podcaster and podcast coach whose mission is to help you get more podcast listeners and make more money from your show. Today and every day, I am here to share with you what is working for me and for podcasters way bigger than me so that you and I can have profitable thriving podcast businesses. Today on the show, we're joined by two experienced podcast experts who themselves have joined together to spread the word on how podcast trailers are a key piece of how you can successfully grow and monetize your show. So if you're ready for more listeners and more money, then stick around to this episode of Grow the Show. This episode of Grow the Show is presented by Factor. So right now, I am going hard at my end of summer growth goals because the busy fall season is just around the corner because of that, I'm trying to plow as much of my time into business growth as I can and I'm cutting out time consuming tasks like cooking and grocery shopping. But I'm also going hard on my fitness and nutrition goals as well. So how can I save time while also making sure I'm eating well? Well, the answer is Factor. 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Ariel Listenblad and Tim Villegas are two podcasters who have been in the podcasting game for a while. I've been doing podcasting since 2012. That's Tim and since 2012, he has been the host of Think Inclusive, a podcast about inclusive education and community advocacy. Ariel, on the other hand, Ariel, the second guest on today's episode was actually already a guest on Grow the show back in episode 37 where she originally introduced herself to us. I am the community manager at squadcast.fm. I am the founder of earbuds podcast collective. I'm the co-host of the sounds profitable ad tech applied podcast and many other things. Now both Ariel and Tim talk about podcasting a lot. You can find my podcast on Apple podcasts. You know, we also did social media swaps with podcasts about podcasts because our podcast is a podcast about podcasts. That sounds like my inner monologue. But yes, these two talk about podcasts all the time and due to their undying obsession with podcasts and the fact that they have both been in the space where he combined 17 years, it makes sense that their paths would eventually cross. Tim and I have been friends on Twitter for a while. And you know, we've been, you know, back and forth. I would post something. He would respond. He would post something I would respond. And around a year and a half ago, I started posting on Twitter more and more about trailers. And Tim got all up in my DMs and was like, hey, if you want to really do something, we should do this. Not like that, Ariel. It was like totally friendly. Of course. I didn't mean to imply anything. I you didn't slide into my DMs in any creepy way. You slid in the most professional way ever. Oh God. Awesome. Already off the rails. Now, the reason why Tim so professionally slid into Ariel's DMs was because she started tweeting a bunch about podcast trailers. And the reason she did that is because of something she noticed while she was hanging out with a friend who isn't a podcaster. And so I was in the car with a friend. We were driving long road trip and she is a podcast listener, but not somebody who thinks critically about why she presses play on something she doesn't work in the podcast space. And we were deciding what to listen to. And I said, you know what? Let's go to Apple podcast. Let's go to new and noteworthy. Let's see what is being featured. And listen to the trailers for these shows and see if the trailers hook us. And if they do, why? So we listened to a few trailers. And what was interesting is that I had listened to some of the podcasts that we were listening to the trailers of. And I what I found was that some of the trailers didn't really match the tone and scope and feel of the shows on the whole. And I was like, Abby, I really do want to listen to this, but I understand that the trailer was not that, you know, like you should listen to this even though the trailer wasn't that awesome. As soon as this happened, Ariel said, uh-oh, these creators just almost lost a potential listener because their trailer wasn't good. That's probably happening a lot. And so she decided to do something about it. So I want to help more creators get their podcasts found by the perfect person, by the person who's just going to be obsessed with them, obsessed with the content that they're putting out into the world, but also because I am a podcast listener myself. I listen to five hours a day, sometimes more. And I'm always thinking about what hooks me to becoming a listener of a show. And sometimes I listen to the trailer, sometimes I listen to the first 30 seconds of episode one, if they don't have a trailer. And I'm always thinking critically like, what borers me? What hooks me? What does nothing for me? What does everything for me? Now Tim, again, slid into the DMs professionally because he noticed the exact same problems both as a creator and as a listener. It's hard to figure out what to listen to. I think we've all had the experience of watching a movie trailer and then going to the actual movie and being like that sucked. Yes. Like all of the funny parts were in the trailer. And it just set me up for just disappointment. And so when she mentioned, hey, what if there was like a show that just was trailers? I was like, this is really intriguing. I want to be a part of it. And so that is when Ariel so aptly said, I slid in and suggested a name. I said, we call it the trailer park. With that trailer park, the podcast trailer podcast was born. Each episode of trailer park plays and dissect one podcast trailer. It's a great place for podcasters like you and me to listen to other trailers and get inspiration for our own. But the show is also useful to podcast listeners who want to discover new shows. And that's because it highlights a wide variety of shows. Wanted to make sure to have a balance between first of all shows that were made just for fun and also shows that were made and are part of larger bodies of work. And also shows that were audio drama and also some shows that were fiction and also some shows that were nonfiction and also some shows that were really intense in subject matter and some that were more relaxed, chill, goofy. How do we make sure it's going to be entertaining, but also educational? How do we make sure that they're diverse in tone, scope, nature, in who's creating them? We just made sure that we had one that was super high quality or a few that were super high quality and some that were middle of the line quality. We weren't going to feature any that had like awful quality just because it's not a great listening experience for people who are tuning in. But we wanted to make sure that we showed a spectrum of how trailers could be created. So we listened to a ton. And as they listened to tons of podcast trailers while deciding which ones to feature, they started to get an idea of how exactly they should structure episodes of trailer park. We knew early on that we wanted it to be quick. We did not want it to be a really long show. We decided under 15 minutes was going to be the sweet spot. We wanted it to be a little bit critical but not mean spirited. We wanted to tow that line. And we also wanted to make sure that we were really highlighting our sponsors. We had five sponsors for season one and we put everything behind them. And we really wanted to make sure that we were driving people to those websites to potentially make purchases or really just brand awareness. Whatever it was that whatever the agreement was that we had with those sponsors. Now I know what you're thinking. Five sponsors. How does one already have five sponsors when they launch a show? I promise we'll get to that in a bit. But for now, we're talking about how two podcasters launched a podcast about podcast trailers. So when the time came for them to take action on this show idea, what do you think is the first thing that they decided to do? Well, I just I just remember like us talking and be like, yeah, we need to we need to make a trailer big surprise there. So I sat down at this like random coffee shop like with my computer and just busted out a couple scripts. And I was like, I want whoever's listening like a podcaster or a podcast listener to be like, this is going to be a fun, easy, breezy thing that I'm not going to have to really like be too like thoughtful about but just like enjoy it. And then maybe like absorb some stuff. So that's what I wanted to come across. I think that if you are making a trailer, you really just have to think about who who's your audience? I know. It's like all these marketing things. You know, you just have to you always come back to who are you talking to because the thing is is you can have a few hundred downloads per episode and still be very effective because you are reaching the people you want to be reaching. Yep. You don't have to have thousands and thousands of downloads for episodes. So we knew that we needed to be targeting podcasters and podcast fans. So I think that it was easy for us because we are those people like we were making the trailer for us. Tim and Ariel were making the trailer for themselves. And since those two love trailers so much, it makes sense that they didn't just make one trailer. We had three trailers for trailer park. The first one was called the pre-trailer. It was literally me saying hi. This is us reserving our RSS feed so that we can so that we can have our feed live and we can start pitching to podcast apps and we'll talk more about the marketing side of this in a bit. But that was really short. I think it was 34 seconds long. Then we did a one minute trailer that was me and Tim just being like here's the show. Here's when to expect it. Then we did a three minute trailer that was sharing a little bit more about our personalities and why you might be interested in tuning in when we let you know that the first episode is going to drop. So all of those were one of those could turn somebody off. One of those could intrigue somebody a little bit. One of those could lead you to want to subscribe and maybe press play on the second episode when it drops. But if you've got the time in the bandwidth try different approaches. You can try different approaches because there are actually many different types of podcast trailers. Some trailers that you'll hear are in universe. Maybe if it's an audio drama or a fiction or a scripted or something. Maybe you want the trailer to take you in and be voiced by one of your characters. But another way to go about that is to have there be some sort of announcing this show and they're not actually a character in the show. And they're saying more of like the movie trailer style in a world where this happens then this happens. It's being released on this day. And then there's everything in between. Another trailer style that you'll hear pretty often is like, hi, I'm this person. My show is this on this show. We're going to do these three things. Here's a voice clip of me interviewing somebody demonstrating that I am doing one of those things. Here's the second one. Here's the third. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts, right? All of those are going to be effective in different ways. And some of the questions that people ask us is, how do I decide which style to do? And I say, try all of them. It's not expensive to produce a trailer. They're short. They should not be more than three minutes long. If it's longer than that, I would consider calling it a teaser and adding it a little bit more than just sort of the trailer type content. But keep it short. Those are a lot of potential options. How do you know the type of trailer that would best represent your show? I sort of know the makeup of people who listen to your show because Kevin, thank you for this. A lot of times people book consulting with me and they say they found me through your show. So thanks for that. Nice. Super cool. Cool. So shout out to you, dear listeners. I know a lot of your shows are for your businesses or for your personal brands. And for those types of podcasts, a trailer should have your name. That's easy. The name of your show, why you are making this show, who is it for? And what people should expect and when they should expect it. And you do not have to spoon feed it to us so obviously, but you also can if you want to. Yeah, I don't think it hurts for you to do that. For those types of shows, it does not hurt. However, we featured on season one of our show, a podcast called serum. It was about Tim, do you want to give the definition of serum you loved it and you interviewed the host? I did love serum. So Grant Hill of WHOI produced a narrative of nonfiction podcast about his experience getting into a cab and his cab driver or driver told them this really wild story of a doctor in Tulsa, Oklahoma, having the cure for AIDS. And he's like, wait, what? And so he ended up going down this rabbit hole of like just interviewing all these people, traveling to Oklahoma, uncovering all of this story that didn't seem pretty widely known. And so the trailer that he created really, it was well produced, it had fantastic music. Beautiful. It really sets you up, but it also kept some things from you. So you weren't immediately aware like who is Grant Hill like and why is he important to the story? And is this actually real? Or is it just a conspiracy? So there was all of these questions. So by the time and I think that trailer ended up being like four, almost like four minutes long, it was a longer one. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, not ideal in the sense that we're talking about like three minutes or so, but for me as a person who loves narrative podcasts, I was just like, I need to listen to this. You were all in. I was all in. That got you. Yeah. Remember though that your trailer should be accurate. You want a podcast trailer to have what is going to actually draw you into listen to a show. And you don't want to have that same experience and listen to a trailer and then hear the podcast and you're like, oh, that was a letdown because, you know, maybe the trailer was really well produced, but then the podcast episodes are just like you talking to a mic, you know, and hitting record and then publish. Now, having said all that, you also don't need to put too much pressure on having a perfect trailer. In fact, you don't even need to have only one trailer. I don't think there's a downside to having more trailers than not. And also, once you get comfortable with the medium, you can also be more creative and your listeners will, I guess, give you, give you grace. If you're just starting out, you're brand new and this is your first podcast, I would err on the side of my name is this. And this is why this is important to me. This is why this should be important to you. And, you know, and you can find my podcast on Apple podcast or like we, I think we had we featured a podcast was at the seventh or eighth episode. And in the trailer, it didn't actually say it was a podcast. Yes. And also where they could listen. Yeah, and it was hard to find because it was soundcloud. It was not available wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, wow. Interesting, right? But a really great show and a really fascinating concept. So that's when we talk about the diversity of that. So that we chose we even sometimes didn't choose RSS available podcasts or RSS available audio. The other thing you can do as you put together your trailer to really make it pop is to look to some of your favorite podcasts and listen to their trailers for inspiration. I think a lot of people forget that there are other people who have done this before them and that we can lean on those people go to Apple podcasts, new and noteworthy, listen to all of those trailers before you decide what trailer you're going to make. Go to your category on Apple or Spotify and listen to the shows that are trending and check out those trailers. Then you can see who is doing what in your niche, in your category, in your topic area, and you can decide to emulate what you like, but also make sure to go in a different directions that you also stand out. But make sure that nobody becomes an author without reading books first. Make sure that you are also listening to podcasts before you make audio. That will really help you. I know it's hard. I know a lot of people have trouble integrating podcasts listening into their day. But if you want to be successful in this space, you need to be a student of this space. So take the time to listen to those trailers and figure out what you like, what you don't like, what you should avoid and what you cannot avoid. Once you have a trailer or in Ariel and Tim's case, multiple trailers, there are a bunch of different ways you can use them to bring listeners to your show. Here's the trailer playbook that they used pre-launch so that they had subscribers before they even published their first episode. We very much took part in using our trailer for bus building and for getting the word out before the word needed to get out. So I mentioned before that we released three trailers. The first trailer came, I believe, three weeks before episode one dropped and that the purpose of dropping the 34-second pre-trailer was to populate the RSS feed to get people to start subscribing so that subscribing or following so that when the first few episodes actually did drop, they would be notified of that and also so that we could make sure that we were ready to go when it was time. But we also used it to start reaching out to people. We said trailer park, the podcast trailer podcast is starting soon. It's dropping. You can leave a rating and review now. We would also appreciate it if you listen to our real episodes when they start dropping, but we wanted to start generating bus. So if you can get ratings and reviews early, that's great. So then your podcast looks like it has had visitors before the show is actually live. I always think of ratings and reviews on Apple. No one you go to a cave and you might carve on a rock. Ariel was here. It's kind of like that. It's not really doing anything but it does show that somebody was here before you and that makes you a little bit less scared to hit play on something or a little less scared to like hang out in that cave for the afternoon. Anyway, I think you know any bus building, anybody pointing to your show in advance of the show actually dropping is going to excite potential listeners and ease them into it a little bit more. I don't think we can underestimate the power of Ariel's network in this process. I just as a person who doesn't have that the reach the Ariel does. We used it. Yeah. How much that was part of it. But here's what I will say. Use your network. Like if you're creating something new, it doesn't matter if it's, you know, you have a hundred people in your network or a thousand people in your network. You absolutely have to reach out to them. There were so many personal emails that we wrote, you know, that I wrote to people that I didn't even like know very well and did that Ariel wrote and just explained our show and explained why it could be interesting or important to the person that we are writing to. So it wasn't necessarily just like this form email that we did and we just, you know, copied and pasted. But there was some thought. I remember in the beginning we had a list of people we wanted to contact. And so we both were like, yes, yes, no, maybe, yes, definitely no. You know, so like, you know who you are. Yeah, you know who you are. We're glad we didn't send you an email. I was glad I got contacted. Yes, I read the list. So I think, you know, leverage your network as much as possible. It's kind of like one of those email marketing tips. What's his name? Pat Flynn used to say all the time is like the number one way to grow your email list is to reach out to the people you know, you know, so same thing. Reach out to the people you know. We also, once we had the trailers live, the two trailers that were not the pre-trailer, we pitched those around two. One of the tactics that I like to share with people is if you have a trailer and you want to generate some buzz, you can reach out to podcasts in your general topic area or podcasts about podcasts, whatever it is, and ask if your podcast friends are interested in dropping the trailer as the post roll ad quote unquote, quote unquote ad of their show. So at the beginning, they can say and stick around at the end, we're going to play a trailer for a podcast that we think you're going to love. So you now have that audio file and you can now go and ask your podcast friendlies if they will drop that for you. And if you're thinking why would somebody do that for me? Number one, they might do it just because you're genuinely putting out great content and it could be a great value ad to their audience. But number two, think about what you might have to leverage. Maybe you have a newsletter and you can give them a shout out. Maybe on your next few episodes of the podcast, you can say thank you to all the people who did some buzz building for you. So just constantly be thinking about the given the take and what you can give and what you are asking for. Now, in addition to sharing your podcast trailer on your feed, you can also use your podcast trailer to create video assets and promote those on social media. One of our sponsors was ReCastStudio, ReCast.Studio. It's an audiogram maker. They have really great templates that we used and we really just played around with them. We created landscape shaped audiograms, vertical shaped audiograms and we posted them both as MP4 files on social media. But also we went on YouTube, uploaded to YouTube, you know, added keywords, added descriptions and then shared those YouTube links around. And we also posted on TikTok and we also posted on Instagram reels. And we have an Instagram for trailer podcast, trailer podcast, it's trailer park underscore podcast and we posted there. And you know, we also did social media swaps with podcasts about podcasts because our podcast is a podcast about podcasts. We just had a lot of fun playing around with all sorts of possibilities for what might drive traction back to us. Another one of our sponsors was Aug X Labs and that was another video creation tool that we that we used in order to further our content. So it's an AI generative video maker. So we would upload our audio and it pulls from stock images and gifs, gifs, gifs. We always go over this, it's gifs. Yeah, topic of another day. It has a concrete answer because it's graphic. So it should be gif, graphic. Yeah, I disagree. We've solved it many times. We've solved it, Ariel. There you go. All right, see you later, bye. Anyway, this Aug X Labs really cool. We then took the videos that we made from there. We uploaded those to YouTube and we were really just playing around with YouTube and video technology, especially in this day and age where, you know, we launched around February of 2023, which is when YouTube made the announcement, they were going to start ingesting RSS feeds eventually. That still hasn't fully happened yet all over the place, but there's definitely buzz being drummed up around YouTube and around video podcasting. So we wanted to get in on that on the ground floor and see if it, if it drove people to us and it definitely did. All right. So clearly, Ariel and Tim did a great job of leveraging their three trailers to get buzzed for their podcasts before it even launched. But what about if your show has already launched? What if your podcast has been around for ages and has never had a trailer? Good news. Your podcast hosting site allows you most of the time depending on your podcast hosting site. Hopefully, it allows you to mark something as a trailer. And then most of the podcast listening apps will have a dedicated space for your podcast trailer. So if you go to Apple and you search for your show on Apple, you're going to see if you have a trailer, it's going to say play trailer now. And whenever you mark as your trailer will be in that spot. Spotify also makes it clear what's a trailer. Pocketcast does the same. They have different marking mechanisms that show that something is a trailer. But whenever you drop it, it'll be in that spot in your feed chronologically, but it'll also be marked as a trailer. So if it's disruptive to a listener, they'll listen for 30 seconds. It'll be clear that it's a trailer. They'll move on. You also don't have to put it chronologically in your feed though. A lot of podcast hosts allow you to place it somewhere. So if you are retroactively putting a trailer in like season, you know, three of your show, you can slot it there. You just have to make sure that it's tagged that way. But I don't think it would hurt it to just put it chronologically. Yeah, your existing listeners will either ignore it or listen to it and be like, okay, that's a trailer. And listeners who are testing out your show will be like, oh, cool, sweet. That's a trailer. Now I know 30 seconds what I'm getting into. Even people are going to revolt if we publish something other than our regularly scheduled format in episode at the regular time. Oh gosh. I hope not. They don't. They don't. We're all afraid that they will, but they won't. It's totally fine. They're going to be okay. If they revolt, actually, that would be nice. If I'm being honest, you want the revolt to even hear from your listeners. I know a lot of people struggle to hear from their listeners. So if you have a revolution on your hands, that could be nowhere that you could pitch that around for press. Finally, for those of you who have already launched and already have a podcast trailer, what about you? Should you go back and revisit your trailer at all? There is a point where a podcast trailer becomes stale. I think that it is important to regularly update your trailer, especially if the tone of your show changes. Maybe you are producing it less often or maybe you have a mini series coming out and maybe that mini series is a couple episodes long. Maybe you want to produce a short audio snippet specifically for that. I think you should be regularly listening to your trailer assessing what you are putting out there and making sure that your trailer matches the rest of your show. I think that's the most important thing. You do not want to trick people into listening to something and then what they're getting is different. So that's where we lose people is promising one thing, delivery another. Regardless of where you are in your podcast journey, if there's one thing you should take away from this episode in regards to making a trailer, this is it. Do it. Just make one. Make one, and then if it sucks, just delete it and make another one. Yeah. There's so few downsides to making a trailer because the reality is if you have 100 people following your podcast and you lose five because people think your trailer sucks, you just make another one and like reassess and reassess and reassess. Make another one, reassess. And there's just very, very little downsides. So just keep making them. This is the secret lesson underlying all this over the past five years. I've spoken with thousands of podcasters who are looking to grow and in my estimate more than half of them think they have a growth problem, but what they really have is a clarity problem. It is not instantly and immediately clear who your podcast is for what it will do for them and how it will go about doing it for them. And when you take the time to put together a one to three minute podcast trailer, you force yourself to practice making your show's premise really clear really fast. So there you have it. Hopefully now you have clarity on what a podcast trailer is, why it's important, and why and how you can make one for your podcast. But hold on, there's one more question that we need to answer. You launched a new podcast and in season one, you had five sponsors. How the heck did that happen? Connections, baby, which I have made over the years. You know, and a lot of people will say, I, but I don't have those connections. Ariel's lucky. Yeah, I got lucky. I made those connections over the seven years that I've been working and podcasting. I'm my own NEPO baby. That's what I like to say. Truthfully, like over the years, I've called emailed a ton of people. I've had awkward conversations. I've gone to podcast conferences and stepped on toes and bought coffee for people. And then I called in favors and I said, hi, would you like to get in front of my audience when it was time to get in front of my audience that I was building? And I'm lucky that I've built up people who trust me. And that goes both for sponsors and for people who might potentially buy from the sponsors that are sponsoring our show. But not a lot to do with creating gorgeous graphics and assets on Canva that gave off the perception that this show was going to be a hit because you don't know if it's going to be a hit until it is a hit. So it's got to look like it's going to be a hit. So definitely make sure you've got your branding on point. We also made sure that our pitch letters were strong, persuasive and also short so that people weren't reading and reading and reading with no real aim. We made sure that the ask was clear. We made sure to just get a response from people. That's usually my goal when I'm sending out my initial pitches is just try to not get ignored. If you can get the initial response, that might not lead to a yes per say, but it will open a door. So even if you can just get a high, we'd love to hear more about this. Even if it's a one liner and then you can hop on the phone for 15 minutes and explain what it is you're trying to do with this podcast and why the listeners of this podcast who don't exist yet, these listeners don't exist yet. Why they need to be hearing from focus right and why everybody needs an audio interface. That is going to be compelling to some advertisers like the vocaster from focus right. And also it helps it helps that I genuinely endorsed all of the products that we use and we love them and we would not have partnered with somebody that we were not big fans of and we used all of them for our show week after week. They were integrated into our workflow. I think the the crux of that is even if you're not ready to ask for a sponsor now like you started getting sponsors for this podcast that launched in 2023 in 2015. Yeah. You don't ever like it pretty much. Yeah. Think about who would be perfect to sponsor your show. Maybe you already use that product. Maybe it's not necessarily that it's perfect because it's a demographic match with your listeners, but maybe it's perfect because you genuinely use that product or software or service and you could just do a really great host red ad for it. And there are going to be some people in your audience who who want to hear from you because you're so passionate about it and they're going to convert to becoming customers because you are so passionate about it. But like we said before, there are no real rules when it comes to how long a trailer should be. We say 60, 30, 90 seconds. A trailer could be a hundred minutes long. It doesn't actually matter, but these are just best practices and you really can make up the rules as you go until somebody says otherwise, but you know, just keep it flexible. That's it. Keep it flexible. That is the beauty of podcasting. There are no rules. That's going to do it for this episode of Grow the Show. This episode was written and produced by me with post production by podcast boutique. Special thanks to Ariel and Tim for being on the show today for Grow the Show. My name is Kevin Schmidland. I'll see you next time.