104: How to Get Featured on Any Podcast, With Angie Trueblood

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Okay, so recently I was reviewing Grow the Show's monthly statistics, and I noticed a weird spike in my download numbers. And it was weird because usually there are a handful of days in a given month where my podcast downloads spike. Usually, those are the days that new episodes are released. Pretty simple, right? It's the same thing for you. But this time, it was different. This wasn't a day that I had released a new Grow the Show episode, yet my download numbers spiked as if I had. What's even crazier is that just a few days after this weird spike, I did release an episode and that episode beat my single day downloads record by 25% and what's even crazier than that is that from every single episode released on after that day, my download numbers never went back down. The huge spike in listenership stuck and it's true. My show grew 25% in a single day. So what happened? Well, it turns out that there was a new podcast episode published, and that episode did indeed cause that huge spike in my listenership. But that podcast episode was not on my podcast feed. You see, a few days before, I had been interviewed by podcasting legend Dave Jackson. He was here on the show a few weeks ago, and he had me on his show, which is called the School of Podcasting. And the day that I had that anomaly of a download spike was the same day that he released that episode of his show with me as a guest. And just from me appearing on that one episode, my podcast audience grew 25% and that growth stayed. And this is not a fluke of over more than 200 students in the Grow the Show accelerator program. Recently, the biggest download wins that have been shared in our Inner Circle Facebook group were talking monthly growth of 100%, 200%, 300%. They've all come from those Grow the Show students, getting themselves featured on other podcasts. And this isn't a totally new concept, but all of this evidence all at once got me thinking. If just one podcast episode could have that big of an impact on my download numbers, then what would happen if I had a system to get me regularly featured on other podcasts? What if I managed to appear on another podcast every single week? How much would my audience grow? Based on all of this evidence, it would grow a lot. So how can we make this happen even more? How can you get yourself featured on other podcasts so that you can experience massive podcasts downloads growth too? Today on Grow the Show, we're going to share just that. On this episode, we are joined by Angie Trueblood. Angie is the founder of the Podwise Group, which is an agency that helps entrepreneurs and podcasters get featured on other podcasts. And she's the host of her own show, go pitch yourself. Long story short, Angie is a podcast pitching expert. And her entire job is all about doing this thing, getting people featured on shows. She knows how to choose the right shows for you to pitch. She knows how to create an irresistible pitch that has a high likelihood of getting a yes. And as she'll hear, she's also a pro at being a great podcast guest and taking it home and bringing more listeners to her show. And today, she's going to teach you how to do the same thing. This is Grow the Show. My name is Kevin Spidlin and my mission is to help you the independent podcaster to grow your audience as fast as you can and to monetize now so that you can have a thriving, profitable podcast business. Today, you're going to learn probably the most efficient way to grow a podcast audience. And you're going to learn how most people are actually trying to do it the wrong way. So if you're ready to learn the most effective way to get yourself featured on other podcast shows and to skyrocket your audience size in the process, then stick around to this episode of Grow the Show. So my name is Angie Trueblood. I'm the founder of the Padwai Group, we're like a boutique agency where we work with clients and help them get featured on relevant, well-aligned podcasts. Now, there are quite a few agencies these days that exist to get people featured on podcasts. And a lot of those have the same approach. They pretty much try to pitch you to as many shows as they possibly can and try to get you interviewed by virtually any podcaster with a pulse, regardless of whether that podcast actually A has a significant audience or B relates to what you are here to talk about. Angie's approach is different. It's more precise, well-researched, and scientific. And it actually makes sense that Angie approaches it that way because her background is not in marketing, PR, or podcasting. In fact, before entering the podcast sphere, Angie spent 10 years in biology. I eventually moved into studying ecological genetics and went to graduate school, and then I moved to Miami and studied the endangered beach mouse. And then she decided the scientist's life wasn't for her, so she pivoted. Now, on the surface, you'd think that the only similarity between ecological genetics and working with podcasters is this. There's a pretty good chance that when you, an independent podcaster, think of pitching yourself as a guest to other podcasters, you probably feel like an endangered beach mouse, right? But actually, there's more to it than that. As you're about to learn, the strategy that Angie is about to share with you works so well because it's so scientific. I think that analytic part of science, of not being afraid to look at patterns and relationships, helps me a lot in the work that we do connecting our clients with podcast hosts. There's the research component we really like to dig in. And that is why Angie's method for podcast pitching works so well. Angie and podwys preach that it's not just about sending pitches to as many shows as you can. You got to do a little bit of background to figure out the right podcasts to be featured on, because believe it or not, you might not actually want to be featured on the shows that you think you want to be featured on. So a lot of the research that we do is looking into shows that are more niche. So whereas a lot of clients and even members of our membership will come in thinking they want to get on really giant shows. And I mean, we all have aspirations, right? Of those really well-known highly listened to podcasts. But knowing the conversions that can come from a really engaged audience and showing up in front of that audience is it's kind of undeniable. So when we find one, we can kind of dig in and find a lot of other complimentary shows in that space. So it's really seeing those relationships, like those are more of the patterns that we see as when we're partnering and pairing our clients with hosts. So let's back up a second. How the heck did Angie get from endangered beach mice to pairing business owners with podcast appearances? Well, like you and me, Angie got into podcasting because of the positive impact that listening to podcasts had on her and her life. You see, once Angie left the world of higher education and research, she actually went into pharmaceutical sales. She did well, but after a few years, she really wasn't feeling fulfilled. Thankfully, podcasts helped her see that there was another way. And I just kept thinking there's got to be something more for me. I knew I had a great job, a lot of people would have loved the benefits and perks of the job that I had, but it wasn't fulfilling. So she actually stepped halfway into entrepreneurship by becoming a salesperson for a meal prep company. But then once again, listening to podcasts exposed her to the idea that she could be doing more. Then I started listening to pro blogger podcast and Pat Flynn about blogging and creating online courses. And so I evolved just being a part of that direct sales company into having my own blog and creating my own meal planning course. With that, and she had to start coming up with her own ways to spread the word about what she was selling. She could no longer rely on the meal prep company to market the product. It was her product. So she had to figure out how to market it. So once again, she turned to podcasts for the answer. But this time, it wasn't about listening. Now it was time to be heard. So I started pitching myself to podcast even local media. So our local news station came to my house to film a segment on packing lunches. With no experience in PR, Angie got herself featured on the local news immediately. Other business owners noticed and started asking her questions. And how did you get these opportunities? I mean, how did you get the news station to come down and interview you? And so then I started to realize not all business owners are really comfortable asking. And so then I started to think I might have something here. She did have something there. Today, the pod wise group helps all kinds of entrepreneurs get guest spots on podcasts. And Angie also has a show of her own. It's called Go Pitch Yourself. And it also helps entrepreneurs get themselves featured on podcasts. And while you should totally go subscribe to that show right now so that you can regularly receive her expertise and insights, you should also prepare yourself because she's going to dive into exactly how to do that in just a moment. But before we get into that, we first need to emphasize why getting yourself and your podcast featured on other podcast feeds is hands down the most efficient and scalable way to grow a podcast audience. Well, you're literally getting in front of someone who is already a podcast listener. So you're not having to convince them to check out this medium. You're not even needing them to leave the app that they are listening to that current podcast on. It's just such a low activation energy that is required for them to go and listen and subscribe or follow your show. So there's that part of it, just the ease in what you're asking them to do. But then they also get a sense of who you are. So it's typically at least a 30 minute conversation and that long form content, the ability for you to engage with someone they already trust just gives you a little bit more credibility in their eyes. So they can quickly decide whether or not you are for them or not for them. And so for me, I mean, that's the beauty of it. I think it's just the ease of them following you and then that the quickness with which they can decide if you're a good fit for them. Okay. So by now, you're probably like, look, Kevin, I get it. I know it would be great to get on other people's shows. But honestly, I don't know if I have time to do that right now. To that, I ask you, if you are truly committed to turning your show into a thriving podcast business, what possibly could be more important than getting new listeners? I do see a lot of podcasters cranking out content on their own shows and not spending time getting in front of new audiences. So we've had people in our membership who are doing definitely weekly shows, sometimes two episodes a week, putting that over on YouTube, you know, repurposing in amazing ways. And yet they're not pitching and they're not guessing on other shows. So they're not getting new ears on their podcast. And then when they do get on a show, they don't do much with it. So there's a lot of different ways that you can use those opportunities for SEO juice, for extending that relationship. Like, I hope this is never the last time you and I connect or collaborate, you know, and you can share it on social. You can use it in your email. So I see a lot of people, again, churning through, it's almost like they're spray and praying with their podcast interviews. Like they go live, but then they're not using them. And so that's something we're focusing a lot on in the membership is like, how can we be smart with these opportunities that we've landed and form really beneficial relationships? So it's not even just about getting you more listeners to your podcast. Being a guest on other shows will expose you to new relationships with other amazing podcasters who you'll get to learn from, you'll get to collaborate with, and you'll grow with. And yes, there are other icing on the cake benefits as well, like an improvement to your SEO standing among other things. So it's pretty clear that getting yourself featured on other shows is indeed a really high ROI activity, right? So then why do so many podcasters have trouble getting started with this? One of the biggest questions that people come to us with is how to find shows. And when that happens, it's typically because they haven't done, it's not super difficult work, but they haven't done the strategic work to recognize, well, what types of shows should you be on to where the listeners would likely be interested in your show as well? So just like you coach people who are looking to grow their show to get specific about the people they're talking to as a podcast guest, you want to be specific about the people that you want to get in front of. So you need to know your goal. Most of us are going to want to drive people back to our own podcast. Well, who would be likely to come back and listen to my show go pitch yourself about podcast pitching? Well, likely it might be podcast hosts who already recognize the value of guesting. So if I can get clear that I want to talk and I want to get in front of an audience of podcast hosts who are learning about growing their show, then that helps me know what to search for, right? If I had just gone in and thought, I want to go on a show and talk about podcast pitching, that's kind of hard to find if you go into Apple podcasts to search, right? There's tons of business shows, but which ones are going to be most interested in learning about how to guest on shows. It's like the flip side of what you teach us is find out who that your ideal podcast listener is and then find the shows that they would be listening to. The best part about conducting the research is that it doesn't require a ton of time or fancy paid tools. In fact, all you need is your computer or even just your phone. I mean, we have a database at this point, but the average podcaster doesn't have 1200 shows in a database. Right. However, we still use Apple podcasts as one of our key search engines. And I know there's a lot of other databases that you can buy into. There's places that you can be partnered with other podcast hosts and some of those are great for certain instances, but I use Apple podcast as a search engine. So I was teaching a cohort of people today and I just went into Apple podcasts and you use it just like Google. So how to grow my podcast would likely return a lot of shows about podcast growth. That would be really good fits for me to be a guest on. So it's finding the complimentary shows shows that are talking about topics that are complimentary to what you already talked to your people about and really positioning you to support them. Complementary shows what Angie means by this is that you shouldn't necessarily target shows that are exactly like your own. You should instead target shows that are slightly different. Their topic might be adjacent to your topic or one of your shows might be a subtopic of the other shows. For example, here's what she told me about the kind of shows I myself should be a guest on. I wouldn't put you on a show about podcast growth unless unless it was a big show or someone where you really wanted to kind of be in their sphere. So for networking purposes, because likely if they've got an audience of people that are turning to them for growth, if those people are ever going to buy anything having to do with podcast growth, it's going to be from that host and maybe not this new guy coming in as a guest. Maybe, but that's not the approach that we would typically take. I would rather have you on shows that are talking to business owners who are looking to maybe about content marketing. And why is podcasting a great way to get content out and to support new people? I think for you, it could be podcasts that are about marketing, right? So like small businesses who are looking to market their business. That could be a really complimentary space because people are looking for ways to gain listeners, gain people into their audience. So it's not just about podcasting, right? You're going to be there to kind of support, well, now you're you would be interesting because you don't help people launch their show necessarily, right? Correct. Yes. So we would still want you to be on shows that are talking to podcasters. I would be a little bit more nuanced. I'll do some more research into what shows I should be on specifically and you should do that for yourself. After that's done and you have a list of complimentary shows that you would be a great fit for. It's time to pitch. So how can you craft your podcast pitch in a way that makes it really likely that the host will say yes, they'll invite you onto the show and they'll help you grow your podcast audience. Angie is going to share exactly that after the break. So before the break podcast pitching expert Angie Trueblood explained why on other podcasts is important to the success of your own show and she taught us how to find the perfect shows to pitch ourselves to now it's time for the juicy part crafting that irresistible pitch email. And I'll admit when I started to pitch myself as a guest to other podcasts, I did what other podcasters do and I went about it the wrong way. I call it the spray and pray approach where folks will have a pitch template and they will send the template non-personalized nothing specific to the podcast host. We've all seen it. It doesn't even include my name or the name of the show and that could go out to a hundred different hosts that they found on some sort of list. And I think that's where a lot of potential podcast guests get hung up because they think it's going to take me such a long time. Well, yeah, if you're pitching a hundred hosts, I mean, if you're trying to get their email addresses just a throw spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks. It's also way less fun when you spray and pray and then you get on shows that are just not a good fit and you're like, you spend an hour and you're like, what am I doing? You know, like, yeah, so it's going to be more fun for you. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, how many people are actually listening to this? I don't know. Awesome. Yeah, I mean, you really, you can't deny the energy. That's one of the things we don't listen to, you know, five whole episodes of a show before we pitch it. We don't even listen to a whole one if I'm being totally honest, but there's a way to do your homework to gauge whether your energy is a good fit for the host. This is why you want to be more scientific and thoughtful with the shows that you do pitch rather than sending the same template a million times. It'll be more effective. It'll actually be more efficient and it'll be more fun. But don't get us wrong. Just because Angie is against the spray and pray approach doesn't mean she's against templated emails. After all, why reinvent the wheel every time you send a pitch? I have nothing against a template. We use pitch templates all the time. We craft a template that has three to five different topics that we could pitch to different hosts. But the key is personalizing that pitch before you send it so that when it shows up in the inbox of the hosts, they feel seen. They feel like you know who their show is talking to. You know what they're talking about. And then you kind of ease into your idea for a topic where I see a lot of pitches go off the rails is that middle section like between the first paragraph where you're saying hi Kevin, love, grow the show. I had an idea for topic that I haven't seen you cover before and wanted to get your thoughts on it. A lot of people will burst into dumping their bio. And I mean, I've seen like two paragraphs of bio. We've cut our pitches down to be basically in the intro section really like one sentence that gives a quick synopsis of what you do, but it's not dropping all of your rewards because it's not really about my credentials. It's about how I can serve your audience. And so the important thing to focus on is coming up with a topic that is super relevant for that audience. So it's finding sort of like the perfect storm of what you're an expert at, what they talk to their audience about and how can you take your expertise and still serve that audience. So basically templates are good, but only if you take a little extra time to personalize them for the show hosts that you're pitching to. But what should your template actually include? The first paragraph has that you're planting the seed. I had an idea for me to come on your show to chat about a topic. That's too wordy. You wouldn't write that. But and I would love to know your thoughts. So you get them excited and they're thinking, oh, that's a really cool topic. We haven't talked about that. This part pitching a topic is super important and can really be the difference in whether you get a yes or a no. You are not pitching yourself. You are pitching an episode topic. A lot comes around the topic. And so one, I will see pitches that don't include a topic at all. It's just suggesting that I would be a guest on your show and not proposing what we would talk about. And podcast hosts as all business owners are very busy. And I do not have the time to do the legwork to figure out the angle for you coming on my show, especially when you're the one asking. So we have to do the legwork and share with the host. What would that conversation be? I mean, the definition of a pitch is you are actually suggesting an idea. And so you need to put that idea on a silver platter. On the flip of that, I've gotten pitches that'll share five ideas. Again, that requires the host to kind of wade through, get a sense of who you are and how you could serve their audience. Again, we're not doing that. The goal of the guest is to understand the show enough to live in my own expertise and know or have an idea of what that audience can benefit from and offering that up to the host. So you don't want to overwhelm the hosts with a ton of ideas. But instead, pick your best few episode topics and make them sound really good. It's also living in that abundance and the confidence that you are the expert in what you are pitching. And so you likely know what their audience needs to hear from you. And you also have to do your homework. I mean, you look at the previous guests they've had. You look at the topics they've talked about. You don't want to pitch a topic that they talked about three weeks ago, right? So you've got to do your homework to know it's not going to be repetitive. And then there's other ways to sort of pepper in alternative ideas. So we typically share three to five talking points that the conversation could be about. But a lot of times those could be standalone topics. Also, depending on how deep the host wants to go. And then we attach a one sheet that also has additional topics and sample questions. But I think it's really owning your expertise in doing the legwork to figure out what you think that audience would benefit from hearing from you. All right. So once you have your amazing topic picked and you've written the first paragraph of the pitch, it's time to go deeper. Then when you go into the topic in the middle, we also say a conversation around this topic could include the following talking points. So you're again planting the seed, hey, I'm asking for an interview. And then you can share, oh, I've been a guest on other shows. So I'm going to show up professional on yours. Awesome. And oh, hey, I'm going to share this. If this works out, I'm going to share the interview with my audience. And then at the end, we wrap it up and we say, I would love to know your thoughts on my being a guest on your show. And you leave it at that because we've gotten the links before. I've had people ask, you know, is there a best place for me to send my scheduling link? They're very assumptive. They're just assuming that it's going to be a good fit. And I had Carol Cox from speaking your brand. She said once, I love your pitches because they give me an out, right? Like you're never going to convince someone by being overly aggressive because you're really just initiating a human relationship. So you would never meet someone in the park and give them a hard close for seeing them again. So we don't need to do that in a pitch. Remember when writing your pitch template, the goal is not yes or no. It's not about getting a yes on the very first email you send a person. You'll get some immediate yeses totally. But the goal is actually just to start the conversation and get a positive response that'll eventually lead to a yes. And that's it. That's your pitch email. It can feel complicated and daunting to reach out to other podcasters. But if you just do your research and prepare yourself, it can actually be pretty simple. And to make it even more simple, Angie says that there are best practices that can help your pitch stand out even more like the length. So ours are on the longer side. I do know that from different podcast managers that receive them and that I'm friends with. But we use formatting and bullet points so that they are easily scannable. We now put the bio at the very end in case people want to read it. So it's there. I just never want to host to get a pitch and have a question at the end of it because they're not going to ask the question. No one has time to email back to clarify. So my job is to make sure we really present a case for why we think this client might be a good fit and then leave that ball in the host court to decide if that is in fact a good guest for their show and their listeners. Aside from the length and the content, the language that you use can actually affect the efficacy of your pitch as well. Do not use a lot of eyes. So it's really, I mean, you make that general human connection, right? Here's I found you. I like your show. You don't need to drop a bunch of names that you saw episode or you listened to episode 24 with Susie Q. Like to me, that doesn't prove to me that you've actually listened to my show or know what my show is about so you can just skip it. It's really making that connection of ICU and I had an idea for a topic and wanted to get your thoughts. And then typically it's like that one liner of a bio and it's really sort of connecting what that host does with what you do, right? So you're bridging the gap. You're like bringing all closer together. And then we go into the topic and for that, it's important to almost restate who their listener is and why it would be important. So if I were pitching you, I know your audience of podcast hosts are interested in growing their show. A great way to grow your show is to guest another podcast, but people are often hesitant to do it because they think it's too hard or they don't know how to do it, right? So you kind of then segue into the topic, but always relating how it's relevant to the audience. So far, we've covered how to find the right shows to be a guest on how to write a killer pitch email and some of the tips and tricks that can help that email stand out. With that, you'll be in a really great place to have your pitches be accepted and to get yourself invited onto other podcasts. But our job is not quite done yet because at the end of the day, you can have a killer pitch and be a guest on amazing shows. But if you're not a great guest and you don't actually deliver an insightful and amazing interview, then all of this will be for nothing because nobody's going to want to hear more of you on your show. So how can you perform as a great guest and virtually guarantee that the listeners will fall in love and that they'll want to become listeners of your podcast? And people always do focus on the call to action. Like, how are we going to hook up at the end? I call it getting sticky. Like, how sticky are you at the end of the interview? But a lot of that comes from planting seeds throughout the interview so that what you're offering them is not a big surprise at the end, right? I've mentioned that I have a podcast called Go Pitch Yourself. So when I ask your listeners to go listen to it, they're not going to be surprised. It's just going to be more reinforcement. So if you can tell stories throughout the interview, if you can, at this point, your listeners likely know I have a membership. Maybe they're wondering what that's about. So you really create curiosity throughout the interview, but that comes with time, right? I mean, my first interview was likely horrible. I know it was because I sent them like a ridiculous biography when they asked for a bio. This all comes with time and experience, but that's why it's good to start now and you will improve your craft. And then I feel like there's a lot of different ways you can go with the call to action. I mean, some people say give them one, but I like to offer choice. I don't want to confuse people, but people are going to have a different response to me. Some people are going to maybe want to buy immediately. Others are probably just going to want to check me out and kind of live in my sphere for a while. And I think you need to respect the listener and being able to make the choice that is right for them. So it runs the gamut really in how people can have a good call to action, but I think the conversion for it is very dependent on how that interview went and how well you were able not just to be an expert, but to have a conversation and to seem like a real person. Cool. So let's hear it. If our folks want to learn more, get in touch. What should they do? Well, they can definitely hop over and give a listen to go pitch yourself. So that's my podcast. We published every other week. It's very tactical about pitching primarily for podcasts. So I would say that's a great place to start. And then I do have a download. It's a lot of pitches that we have sent. They all look different. One is a pitch that I sent to Pat Flynn and Instagram DMs. And it goes over some of those core pieces of the pitch that I shared with you. Just to help listeners like form an idea of what that email might look like. And they can get that over at the pod wise group.com slash pitches. And that's pod wise with a Z. The link to that is in the show notes. So there you have it. Angie has just laid down the gauntlet and given you all that you need to know about how to land yourself as a guest on other podcasts. And by doing so to get thousands of other podcasts listeners to discover you and your show. And if you would like support as you do your pitching research and craft your pitch, you can join me and Angie in the free Grow the Show Facebook group. That's where Xi and 2500 other growth minded podcasters are constantly hanging out. And it's where we can help you refine your pitch and get featured on as many amazing podcasts as you possibly can. And by the way, joining a group that has 2500 podcasters who are all looking for podcast guests is probably a good place to kickstart this process, right? The link to join us there is in the show notes or you can go to growthe.show slash fb. Grow the show is a Q9 production. This episode was written and produced by me and Catherine Nails with post production by Jeremy Bishop and a very, very special thanks to Angie Trueblood. For Grow the Show, my name is Kevin Schmidland. We'll see you next time.