100: The Only Way to Monetize Your Podcast Audience, With Dave Jackson

Hey Kevin here, so this week on Grow the Show we are resharing an absolutely pivotal episode of Grow the Show that originally aired last year. It features podcasting legend Dave Jackson and when we originally published it we heard from a lot of Grow the Show listeners that it helped make podcast monetization way simpler for them to understand. So my hope is that for you today you will experience the same thing. Even if you've already heard this episode it's going to serve as a great reminder of the basics, the fundamentals of podcast monetization regardless of how your show is monetized. So if you want podcast monetization growth and revenue to be made more simple then stick around and please enjoy this episode of Grow the Show. Okay, so it has been made super loud and clear by the Grow the Show community that you want to learn more about podcast monetization. Most of the episodes of this podcast Grow the Show focused on just that growing the show. But you're a podcasting entrepreneur, you're not just here for growth, right? You want to make money. You want to have a growing podcast business not just a growing podcast, right? So let's talk about that. Today we are going to talk about the almighty M word monetization and we're going to talk about it in a way that you probably haven't heard it talked about before. That's because while you may have heard about the many different ways to monetize a podcast audience, in this episode, I'm going to convince you that there is only one way to monetize a podcast audience. Now, I've been lucky enough to grow and monetize two podcast businesses. I first podcast Philly who took in a little over six figures in revenue per year in its heyday back in 2018 and 19. That show was monetized via paid ads, live ticketed events, a modest Patreon following and a smattering of other monetization techniques. My second podcast, this one, Grow the Show, in 2021, generated $502,000 in revenue via my podcast accelerator coaching business. We just barely eaked over the half a million mark. Now this podcast is way more profitable than the first one and while those two shows sound like they were monetized in completely different ways, they actually were monetized the same way. And by the end of this episode, you'll understand what I mean. Now the reason why I share these numbers publicly is not to brag or to make me sound like I'm an all-knowing podcast guru. I am not and will never be all-knowing. I'm simply somebody who has worked really hard, has found success and is hoping to share that success with you. The reality is even though podcasting has been my full-time career since the summer of 2018 in the grand scheme of things, that's actually not all that long. There are kids who started college before I was a podcaster who are still in college right now. Podcasting itself has been around much longer and there are some podcasters who have been doing this more than four times as long as I have. And one of them is here with us today. His name is Dave Jackson and he is a Hall of Fame podcasting legend. He's the founder of the School of Podcasting, which is a membership as well as a podcast. And more recently, he's the author of the book Profit From Your Podcast, proven strategies to turn listeners into a livelihood. Now if I know a thing or two about podcast monetization, Dave knows 100 and today he is here to share the big news. There is only one way to monetize a podcast audience. And in about 30 minutes, you're going to know what that is. This is Grow the Show. The podcast to help you grow your podcast. My name is Kevin Schmidland and my mission is to help you the podcasting entrepreneur to get more listeners and make more money so that you can have a profitable podcast business. Today we are joined by the professor over at the School of Podcasting, Mr. Dave Jackson who's going to teach you how there is one way to profit from your podcast and how you can start doing so today. So if you're ready to be a profiting podcast entrepreneur, then sit back, relax and stick around for this episode of Grow the Show. I'm Dave Jackson. I'm a podcaster, author, speaker consultant from the School of Podcasting.com. Dave is an absolute podcasting OG. He's been helping podcasters to launch, grow and monetize for years and he's been teaching podcasting for more than a decade. While most of us in the space got here within the past five years, Dave got introduced to podcasting way back in 2005. I had been teaching people how to surf the internet because they didn't know what it was. And so I'd been building websites in front page and I had the newsletter for musicians. And at around that time, a friend approached Dave and told him about a brand new form of media. He says, I've seen the next big thing, it's going to be podcasting and I remember I googled it and there was one and a half pages and I was like, I think I broke the internet hold on and there just wasn't anything. And when I finally pieces parted one together and I uploaded a file and then there was this really archaic software that I used to download and I went, oh, oh, I get it. It was super complicated to even download podcast episodes back then. But thanks to Dave's tech background, he was able to figure it out. So he decided to try making one of his own. I remember I made a couple of episodes and a guy named Michael Van Laar from Nuremberg, Germany sent me a voicemail and I just about fell out of my chair. I was like, wait a minute, there's a guy, I'm in No Town, Ohio and there's a guy in Nuremberg, Germany that not only found this thing, but actually likes it and I went, wait a minute, I can actually help people with this. This is a whole new way of teaching and I just grabbed whatever flag was around and planted it. I hear by claim podcasting in the name, but you know, it's like, this is going to be my jam. And today 17 years later, it's still his jam. But while today podcasting is fairly mainstream, that wasn't quite the case for most of the time in between trying to talk somebody into starting a podcast back then. They were like, do I need an iPod for that? Nope, just the internet and some speakers and a microphone. And once you finally got them to understand what it was, they would then go, yeah, I don't want to do that, you know, and at that point, the group was, that's why you had all these this week in tech and all the nerdy geek guys jumped into it because they're the only people that understood it. And the other person is you had the art man guy like, man, it's my art because I'm like, I think we might be able to make some money with this. Like, why would you want to monetize your art, man? Those people are still around by the way. I've bet you've probably run into them that one time you posted in literally any big podcaster Facebook group asking for help turning your show into a business. And they said, why do you want to monetize? Why do you want to make any money? Just do it because you're passionate. Anyway, for the first decade that the word podcast existed, it was super niche. And Dave was one of the very few people playing in the podcasting world. That was until about 10 years later, when something happened that made Dave realize that the podcast tsunami was approaching. I remember when I watched Saturday night live and they did a parody of cereal and I went, oh, because it used to be be kind of fun. You'd hear this odd mention like, oh my gosh, they said the word podcasting oranges the new black or something and you would hear it. But it just started popping up and it was just one of the things I can 2005, I said, I'm pretty sure this is going to catch on like this has the potential to change the world. And I've just seen it get bigger and bigger and bigger. Like I know grandma still doesn't understand what a podcast is, but they're making fun of podcasters on Saturday night live. That is a benchmark. And these little benchmarks are actually what has kept Dave going all of this time. You know, when you're on the interstate and you're driving for a long period and all sudden that sign comes up and says wherever you're going 40 miles and you're like, okay, good because I was starting to think I was on the wrong road. So it's an indicator that you're like, okay, this is definitely getting bigger and then throw on top of that all the Edison research that every year that shows it. Okay, yep, more people are listening and things of that nature. It's a great indicator. How has what you each new podcasted change over the year? It's gotten so much easier. I had somebody that just came up and he had bought the equipment about three years ago, had some things happen in his family. He's now ready to come back and really do it this time. And he had a mixer and actual like baringer mixer. And I was like, oh, man, I haven't taught mixed minus in about a year and a half. And he's like, what's mixed minus? And I go, well, something that you don't, you don't have to worry about anymore. If you had something like a pod track P4 or whatever, but I, you know, we walked him through it. So that's one. And then there are more listeners now. That's I think the nice thing about it is, you know, back then people were like, what's a podcast? And I haven't had, I'm sure it'll happen if there's still people out there where you go and you start talking and somebody goes, hey, I'm going to ask and you're like, what? And they're like, what's a, what's a podcast? You know, they have to take you in the corner because they're in bears. I'm like, no, nothing to be embarrassed about. And just I think we have a little more insights into what works, what doesn't work. But while parts of teaching podcasting has become easier as the medium has become more mainstream, at the same time, that popularity growth has brought Dave a new wave of difficult conversations when speaking with aspiring podcasters. You know, you hear that somebody like Jordan Harbanger just signed for seven figures at, you know, podcast one. And of course, Joe Rogan and, you know, Mark Maren and John Lee Dumas is another guy from the early days and Pat Flynn, you know, these guys used to post their income report and they're like, well, okay, it is possible. But they also sometimes don't realize that you're a guy who works nine to five has a wife and three kids and is on the way to soccer practice right now, where those solo pernoors have a team of six that they're paying. They don't have a day job or spouse or kids and sometimes not that you have to be single and lots of free time. But when you first start off, it's going to take some time. I just did a poll with my audience and most people are spending about 10 hours for one hour of a podcast and you're like, how is that then like, well, by the time you figure out what it is and scheduling interviews and things like that, you get done. And so it takes some time. And so what I always tell people is it's not automatic. If I start a podcast, it's not in six months you're going to make money. You know, if I have somebody come up to me and they say, what's the topic I can talk about that will allow me to make the most amount of money in the shortest amount of time? I just look at them and say, take whatever money you're going to spend on equipment and play the lottery because that's every, that's like the wrong question to ask. How can I make money as quickly as pot going, do you have an audience? No, do you have an email list? No. And you're going to make money. How? Now, this is not meant to be discouraging. It's meant to convey a reality. Making money as a podcaster involves making a good podcast, making a good podcast is time consuming. And if you're going to invest your time into a show, you really need to understand what you're getting into and how to best approach it. That's why before you can even think about making good money podcasting, which we are about to talk about how to do, you have to first think through your answers to a few questions, three questions actually starting with this one. Why are you starting a podcast and if somebody goes, I don't know, sounds fun. I'm like, hmm, because again, when I say it's hard, like you're not going to be breaking into sweat and it's not impossible kind of hard, but it takes some time and effort. And so the person's like, I don't know, sounds fun. After about an hour and a half, this is going to go, you know what? I'm going to go back to video games. So why am I doing this? So that could be I want to position myself as an expert. I want to get my word. I can't get any exposure for this great cause I'm working on. I want to do this because I'm trying to build a resume for a future job. And this will help me stand out. Those are a few examples of profitable answers to that question and yours might be different. But if your why is that it sounds fun or that you want to make tons of money as quickly as possible or you're hoping that launching a podcast will swoop in and rescue you from your day job or just suddenly drive you tons of business, well, you're going to be in for a reality check. You got to really want it to make this happen. And I'm assuming that you do because you're here right now. So assuming that your primary why is something other than a cash grab, the next question you have to ask yourself is this who is my audience for? You can go super wide, but that that is kind of like a river that is, you know, a mile wide but an inch deep. I would rather go in inch wide and a mile deep to really reach people because if we do the confidence show, okay, well, who does want to be more confident? Let's go. The confident first time parent. Oh, now we cut out some people. In fact, we cut out a lot of people and now people like I think he's talking to me and if I go, oh, crazy, the confident first time new interracial parents, oh, now they're like, oh, now we can talk about some stuff that I want to talk about. So when you niche down, you get a smaller audience and you don't have to niche down, but you get a smaller audience, but you get a more dedicated like, oh, and now I'm super loyal to that. So that episode to come out, be more specific. I think I'm going to have to put that on my gravestone. Here lies Kevin, he still thinks you can be more specific with your audience. If you've never heard me say that before, then hello, you must be new here. Check out literally any other episode of Grow the Show or watch literally any Grow the Show YouTube video and you'll learn more about how to be more specific. So that leads us to our third and final question we have to answer before monetizing, which is also all about your audience. What do I want them to do? And if it's like, why just want them to tell their friends, because I want to get advertising, not my favorite form, but okay, it can be done. Or are you trying to promote a book or a membership site or your course or whatever you have? That's, whatever it is, you have to know why because that why steers the what? So you have the what, the who and the why, and when all those are in sync, you end up with a great kind of business plan or a marketing plan or growth plan that that works. So those are the big three actually start off with who, why are you doing this? Who's it for and what do you want them to do? After and only after you've thought about these three questions, that's when you can start to talk about the M word monetization. But like Dave said earlier in this episode, podcasting can be a really big time and energy investment. So how can you position yourself to make the most out of this investment and make money from your show as efficiently and profitably as possible? Well, there's actually two main strategies. The number one most profitable way is by selling your own products and service. If I practice law and had a podcast about my area of expertise as a lawyer, I would use that podcast to gain new clients. If I was a founder or an executive at a company, I would use the show as my main source of traffic and lead nurturing or if I were a podcaster with a podcasting accelerator program, I would use my podcast to get new students. There's a concept in marketing and dating actually called the seven hour rule and the idea is this people are not going to buy from you until they've spent about seven hours with you. I'll let you figure out how that applies to dating. But for business, that means that we need to have some way for people to spend on average about seven hours of time with us before we expect them to buy anything. And that also applies to you if you aren't in business. If your show is entertainment, it's still a business. And it just so happens that a podcast is a pretty perfect way to achieve that. When you publish on a regular schedule, now you're seen as trustworthy. If you can share, I always say, if you can make a point with a personal story, then they get to kind of know you. And if your content is good, they're going to like you. So now they know you, they like you, they trust you, and you say, Hey, I got a news course coming out. I got a new book coming out. I'm going to be doing this or that. They're like, Oh, I want to actually support this person. The fancy phrase is the law of reciprocity. So I've given you value now, you're going to give me value back. And that's the one that I, something you've done great is I know you have a crew that can help edit their show. When I first started, I was handing that stuff off to my friends. And if I could go back, I would have like, Ooh, I should have white labeled some of those people because your audience in some cases, Daniel J. Lewis, I mentioned in the book, was a web designer. And he now has a whole bunch of other products because he attracted an audience. It just wasn't the audience he wanted. And he looked at that audience and said, Well, what do they need? Oh, well, I'll just make that. And it works that way. So that's one, this selling your own stuff. Now I know that you might not have your own business, product or service that you can use your podcast to promote. And that's okay. If you don't have a business, but would like to have one, your podcast can be a really, really valuable tool to help you start one. For one, you basically have a built-in focus group filled with people who know you and actually want to help you. This already gives you a huge leg up. This is where things like a newsletter or a private Facebook group or if you're using something like circle.s.o, that's another kind of Facebook groupie kind of thing. That's really great if you can get together or I sent out an email once and this was by accident, but it was the best accident I ever did. I thought I had made a list of like 15 people of another big list and I was going to go to that list and say, Hey, you know, I give you this content every week. I'm thinking of starting something. I need your feedback. If you wouldn't mind, I would really like to pick your brain on some ideas I have to make sure I'm not going down the wrong direction. I meant to send it out to about 15 or 20. I sent it to my entire list and because in that list was a link to schedule a free like 30 minute call. And so for the next two, yeah. So for the next two weeks, I just did nothing and it was like one of the best things I've ever done because a, I got to put a face with my listeners. It was kind of humbling in a way because they would kind of fan boy out in some cases. They're like, wow, it's like you sound just like Dave Jackson. I'm like, well, it's, you know, it comes with the head that's what comes out of my mouth. But it was cool because I was working on a product and in the end, I didn't make it because I didn't have anybody go, Oh, what one is that going to be available? It wasn't a bad product. It was like, Oh, that sounds kind of cool. But there wasn't. I was like, OK, this needs to go back in the oven. This strategy can apply in either direction. If you've got a podcast and you want to create a product or service, have one-on-one conversations with your podcast listeners. If they aren't willing to buy the thing right then and there, you need to improve whatever it is you're offering. If it's the other way around and you have a business and you want to start a podcast or even if you have neither and you're thinking of starting a podcast, you should still have actual conversations with the people who you want to become your listeners. And if after telling them about your podcast idea, they don't ask you, when can I listen? You should probably tweak the show's concept a little more until they do. And by the way, these calls, these usually Zoom calls, one-on-one with your potential listeners, they don't need to be complicated. They're just conversations. Just say, Hey, I'm holding a Zoom meeting. We're going to do a town hall or a happy hour or whatever you want to call it. Something to get in front of your audience and then just throw out, Hey, I'm thinking of doing this thing. Would this be something you guys would be interested in and go from there because when in doubt ask your audience, people are like, Well, should I get a new microphone? I don't know. Is your audience saying you sound bad? No. Well, then it's probably not the microphone. But if you can get in front of your audience and say, Is this something you struggle with to or is because you need to figure it because a product typically solves a pain. So it's always kind of weird because if you just walk up to a newsletter and say, Please tell me what your biggest pain is. That's kind of it's what you want. But when you say it, most people go, Oh, somebody's fishing for, you know, depending on it, you start sounding like that 1970s car salesman, right? Somebody's going to sell me something. And if you do it more in a conversational way, because that's really what you're trying to do. Like, Hey, I want to help you. And you could even start it off with, Hey, I'm, I'm doing around table. I've been doing the show for six months. And I want to make sure that I'm giving you the content you want. If you'd like to help me, I'm doing this live zoom meeting on such and such. What do we all get together and talk about the show? And probably through that, you're going to find out what they like and what they dislike. And then you say, Well, does anybody, you know, if you have an idea, their ways you can kind of inject those ideas and get their immediate feedback, because I think that's one of the things that most podcasters lack is, and I understand completely why you're going through this learning curve, you're figuring out what to do in audacity. And you finally, Holy cow, I got an MP3 file to come out of this thing. Holy, this is great. So you're like, I'm done. That's episode one. And you put it out there. And I go, yeah, but, you know, most authors have a thing called a rough draft in the theater. There's this dress rehearsal. You know, there are all these things that Mike, you're usually going to put out the very first, you know, depending on how much planning you did, and my first episode is horrible. But I was like, the, what would you call it, a focus group? I think sometimes we skip that step, and I understand why you just spent hours agonizing over this. The last thing you want to do is go, Hey, can you like tear this to shreds for me? Yeah. But on the other hand, the next step usually is, okay, now I got to buy Facebook ads. And I was like, well, we want to make sure that we're going to get the right reaction from this content that we made. And that's, it's just so hard to go, yeah, I guess I do need to get some feedback on that. Once you do have both things in flight, meaning you have a podcast and you have a product or service to offer, at that point, monetization is just getting good at converting your listeners to customers. That's it. It's that simple. And it is, in general, the most profitable way to monetize a podcast. That's why my second show made half a million dollars in its first year. But guess what? This type of monetization, creating a business around the show and offering and fulfilling a product or service, it's a lot of work. It's even more work than the podcast. So what if you're somebody who has no interest at all in creating, selling, and fulfilling a product or service? Well, I have good news. Again, converting your listeners to customers of your business is the most profitable way to make money with a podcast. And it is the most labor intensive. It takes the most extra work. But there is another way to monetize your podcast. It's not as profitable and you'll need more downloads and a much bigger audience to make the same amount of money that you'd make by converting your listeners to customers of your own business. But if that's not something you can or want to do, the alternative is this, simply make money off of your podcast by converting your listeners to customers of someone else's business. I have a weight loss show. It doesn't look like it if you saw me, but I have a weight loss show. And there's an alternative, everybody knows my fitness pal and I found another app called Chronometer that I started using. And Dave decided to share that app with his weight loss podcast listeners. But before doing so, he set up what's called an affiliate link where every time somebody clicks on that link and downloads the app, Dave gets paid. I either make a dime per lead or like $3.10 if they subscribe. And I'm making three figures a month because I've got the right product for the right audience. It is a huge concept worth repeating. You shouldn't try to sell just any products to your audience. It needs to be super tailored to their needs and interests because if the product isn't right for the audience, you're not going to make any money and your audience will be at best confused and at worst annoyed. So what products should you choose to endorse? It's pretty simple. The ones you already use. That's one key for all this. If you're going to have any kind of sponsors or affiliate, use it so you can talk about it firsthand. Right. And the best part about selling someone else's product or service is that when you sell your own product or service, if you ever want to change things up and sell a new product or service, you have to create that thing from scratch. But when you sell someone else's product or service, there's no limit to the products you can sell. I found these things called fit decks and I would make a $1.50 every time somebody bought a deck of cards that was basically you'd deal yourself an exercise. But people went over to buy one deck and they would buy like three or four because they're all sorts of different varieties. And again, it was the right product for the right audience. I've done things where I've made courses on other people's stuff because for whatever reason they didn't, there wasn't a lot of help or documentation. So I would make the missing documentation and at the end of every lesson say, oh, by the if you plan on using this, please click here and to change, to change, to change. So and especially if you can get the people that you're making the course for to promote it, like, hey, I've done you a favor. I've done the course that you should have made. Yeah. Yeah. So they, because with affiliate marketing, you make money when the company makes money. So it's kind of a win, win for all those. So I usually tell people, if you're looking like I need to get some sort of income stream, that's where I'll go to affiliate marketing and I'll be like, huh, is there anything that I use on a regular basis? So like one of the things I have one sitting here, a Zoom pod track, P4 is the, it is the Swiss Army nice of podcasting as long as you don't drop this thing on the floor, you're in good shape. But I think I made, I don't know, $7 every time somebody buys one of these. So if there's something that you use that you could talk about from your, you know, first hand knowledge and then turn that into quote and add, it's an affiliate link, but it's something that, and I've seen that work really, really well in some cases. Or again, if your show is kind of niche, so maybe you're doing a, a wedding podcast, is there a dress shop in your area that, you know, would benefit from being in front of people that are planning a wedding? You know, go out and look, it's, it's one of those things. The hardest part is we hate to sell. We like to create, but we're not very good at sales. And I hear this all the time when people, let's say I have a course, and I've worked, you know, months on it. It's a brilliant course. And yet the pitch sounds like this, hey, thanks so much for tuning in today. If, if you kind of like, you don't have to, but if you want, like, I did this thing. And, you know, it's at the website, just go to .com. And, you know, thanks. You're like, wait, what? What was that? So, and, and I get that because I always feel bad for like the 1970s use car salesman because that is the pinnacle of like bad salesmanship. But the idea was. Speed is family. Right. Yeah. Poor guys trying to feed us, but on the other hand, the, the stereotype is that when I get that car off the, the lot, it's going to fall apart because it's a bucket of bolts. And I always look at people and go, okay, so is your podcast a bucket of bolts? And they're like, no, I spend hours working on this thing. And I'm like, okay, so then why are you worried about selling it? If you know who your audience is and you've made something for them that's going to help them, you're not trying to sell them. You're trying to help them. And they'll either accept your help or they won't, but it's not a bucket of bolts. And I've started watching some documentaries of really famous people. And one was Billy Eilish. She stopped her concert, like literally stopped her concert. And people were like, still like at their phones up and she's like, no, no, I really need you to be quiet for a second. And she goes, I want to make sure you're okay because if you're not okay, I'm not okay. Taylor Swift did almost the same thing where they stop, slow things down and then make a point. So I always tell people, when you want to do your pitch, slow down and slowly, specifically and confidently ask for something. Whether that's something is asking them to become your customer by buying your product or becoming a client of your service or by becoming a patron or a premium subscriber, aka, asking them to become a paying customer of your business or you're asking them to become a paying customer of someone else's business via either affiliate marketing or just plain old sponsorship advertisements, simply slow down, make the case for why your listener will benefit from paying for that thing and then watch the monetization dollars roll in. And if you're not quite in either place yet or you're not sure what step to take now, that's okay too because there is one place you can go to figure out which next step to take any time you can see the color of the eyes of your listener. Here in the right spot because I would rather hang out with five of my listeners in person to just kind of let them talk amongst themselves and listen and things like that. When I go to clubhouse, I don't go to talk, I go to listen and when you kind of, the more you focus on your listeners and less on your stats, when you focus on your listeners, your stats will come. But I see new podcasters especially that check their stats every hour in some cases. It's like, hey, it was 17 last hour, it's still just 17, I'm like, nobody's downloading it. Go focus on your audience. So I think that would be the big thing I see. My little bumper sticker phrase is spend $100 on a microphone, spend 100 hours getting to know your audience because that just seems to, it just starts to steamroll after that. Dave knows he's been doing this way longer than you and I have and longer than most other podcasters. Now before we let Dave go, it wouldn't be an episode of Grow the Show if we didn't ask about growing the show. So after a decade and a half of watching the podcast world evolve and teaching thousands of podcasters how to grow and monetize, that's my last question. What is Dave's top piece of advice for you? An independent podcaster who wants to grow their audience. It turns out the answer is the same. You had Eric Newsamon on an episode, I heard that, that was great and when he talks about just ask your audience to share, you like, oh, they can't be that simple, I'm like, it can be. So don't forget to ask people to share your show and do it slowly, consistently, confidently. And I know, look, I know that you like, oh, that, you know, you got to do more than that. I have to go out and lift weights and write my website in the sky and I'm like, let's start with, because everybody's like, I need a team. I need a team to help grow my show like you have a team, it's called your audience. I guess that makes you a member of my team. So I have a request for you. If you know any other podcaster who is interested in learning how to make more money from their podcast, share this episode with them. And if you want to further your own understanding of the concepts you just learned, teach them that the only way to monetize a podcast audience is by converting a small percentage of your listener base to customers. Customers of your business via a product or service or a monthly membership or customers of someone else's business via affiliate marketing or paid sponsorships. And if you want to grow your understanding of this concept even further, you should absolutely pick up a copy of Dave's book, Profit From Your Podcast. It is hands down the best podcasting book I read in all of 2021 and it dives way deeper into the many options you have when trying to convert your listeners to customers. Finally, if you want me or Dave to weigh in on your specific podcast situation, join us both in the Grow the Show Facebook group where he and I are waiting to provide you with the help and coaching you need to get this podcast business off the ground. The link to do that to buy Dave's book to listen to his podcast school of podcasting all of that is available to you right now in the show notes. Grow the Show is a Q9 production. This episode was written and produced by both Catherine Nails and myself with a very special thanks to the folks at Libson and of course the OG Dave Jackson. For Grow the Show, my name is Kevin Schmidland. See you next time.